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 Post subject: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:52 pm 
Elven Warrior
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This thread aims to make a quality conversation after a justified rating of the new balance that the new experimental army rules bring to the game.

https://20889-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/Additional-Rules.pdf

~~~~~~~Important~~~~~~~~~~
I rate the faction rules by how balanced the army becomes after this addition. Rating from 1*(unbalanced - not helping the army or making the army extremely strong) to 5* (balanced, saves the army or makes a spammy strong army weaker)

The Fellowship - 3*
I like the fluffy Frodo rule. Adds realism and a reason to take that hobbit. Though the bonus is low and considering the courage values of the fellowship it is weak. Not a catastrophic addition considering that we usually use the Fellowship as an ally rather than an army that we want to continuously see it in tournaments.

The Shire - 2*
With this you can make a full army of elite small hobbits. One more army that we mostly use as allies. The swarm hobbit army is not using the elites, so I would not consider this a good boost to the shire. Shire is a high tier army so probably not a disaster for this army.

Rangers of the North - 4*
So they broke Arnor, but rangers that can lead warbands + 100% bow limit? Awesome. No doubt, you will see this army very often. Mounted version etc. The grey company is back boyz...

Numenor - 1*
I thought that Numonor is one of the weakest army and they are going to give it a huge buff. Hell no, they abandon it. Increasing courage from 3 to 4 for each warrior is going to solves no problem. This army needs a very serious buff, something that has to do with a utility that you have not with Numenor due to the low unit choices you have.

Minas Tirith - 4*
The +1 courage makes a hell of a difference here. MT was a difficult army to break. Now it becomes even more difficult to destroy after being broken. Great rule. Courage in my opinion is the weakest of all stats, so I believe this is not overpowered by any means.

Fiefdoms - 2*
How many models can be 12" from Imrahil? Why to make this army even more depended in a single hero? I don't think people are going to play full Fiefdom, they are going to go for a wizard ally...

The Dead of Dunharrow - 4*
Guys this is better than it looks. You won't take heroes and might but you are going to have a horde of those slayers. In a 700pts game you are going to have King of the dead and 40(!) deads. Trust me, it's awesome.

Arnor - 2*
Arnor is rare but has some nice profiles. The new rule is trying to solve the problem of "what answer do I have against nazguls and beasts", BUT I think that Arvendui is probably going to be dead even before you charge for the first time (D:6, W:2, F:0).

Rohan - 5*
Here we are. One of the strongest armies in middle earth that never found their way to tournament victories in this SBG. Give them a good buff please and... oh yeah GW is probably going to answer this. +1 STR on charge!!!!!! Now the full mounted rohan army that trampled a million orcs in the film, is becoming a real punch in our tabletop. Let me explain. If you ask the pro Rohan players they will tell you that Rohan succeds only if it becomes effective as a killing power in 3-4 charges it makes until the game is over. With this buff, it is going to kill, a LOT.

Wildmen of Druadan - 2*
We see that they are separating a lot of staff from the previous faction system. But the special rules are not respectively powerful from an army that has few to an army that has many unit/tool choices. Wildmen get many situational rules and the no-captain rule we saw before. Well, you will definitely get a lot of them but they do not actually cooperate well. You won't find answers to enemy's thread and you won't have no maneuverability, no real shooting, punch, defence etc...

Rivendell - 4*
In Free Peoples, Eregion and Rivendell was relatevely weak, but now they get some serious buffs. The well known rivendell all-mounted army seems like it belongs here, butt actually it does not. Rivendell Knights(but not captains..), Lindir and Twins are here. The special rule is superb, adds more effect on shooting, but you must not move, so the knights have problem... So we referring to the typical high elf army, where you can add stormcallers and the new combined Elrond profile. All in all, the changes help this army become better, but I predict it won't be tier 1, but for sure viable enough.

Lothlorien - 2*
Flying Legolas got away from this army. They took away one of the biggest threads from this army and gave them a superb rule. Resistant to magic for everyone. Guys this is huge, considering that you still have Haldir who is a great archer too. Galadiel will be almost free to spam spells and your warriors will be so goddam annoying. I think this army is overpowered, but the lack of Legolas may pull it back to normal tier 1.

Fangorn - 3*
All in all Ents get some resistances to magic. Fair enough. Does not changes much, but this army is already untested. I believe it is ok to try it. Nice and thematic.

The Misty Mountains - 2*
That full eagle army is going to be stronger now. It is a spammy list in my opinion that does not deserve a bonus like that. Still there is no magic there (Radagast is not part of this list) and the lack of Might remains the problem. I would see towards a rule that can add some short of variety in the tactics other than just the charge and go, then pray for priority.

The Kingdom of Khazand-Dum -2*
What are those dwarves missing most? Killing power. Well give it to them a bit. And that's what they did but in a miscreated way. What is going to happen with all those reroll 1s? What about sword special rules? Maybe this bonus should be done in another way. The intention is good though. But they miss Gimli and Dain, lack answers to magic and spear support, so they needed a better rule for sure.

Thorin's Company - 3*
Exactly like The Fellowship. Once again this re-roll 1s rule...

Barad Dur - 3*
They broke Mordor (but actually they didn't because what you actually need is inclunded in the Mordor army we will see next) and they gave each of the armies superb rules. Here we have Sauron, witchking and shelob with a horde of basic orcs. So you are going to have numbers. So they give you killing power if you outnumber your opponent. Nasty, but Mordor is not needing such a great rule as it is already a tier 1 army. But no named Nazguls here, no morannons etc, so maybe it would be just ok.

Angmar - 4*
Great special rule, Angmar needed this. A great improvement, I am definitely going to play this.

Mordor - 1*
As I said above, they took nothing from mordor, a list with huge variety and overpowered models and they gave them some of the best rules which do not fit well. You just need to have more models which is almost always the situation, warriors get +1 courage (which is not that good) and re-roll 1s to wound. Seriously? All of this? Maybe they should find something realistic to represent the specialty of mordor.

Moria - 4*
A huge buff. I am not sure if this is going to be spammy with 100 models. To understand how strong this is gonna be it needs playtesting...

Isengard - 4*
A well known tournament wining army. They gave them a small buf that actually works excellent in this certain army. The high cost models are not gonna run down without battle. Also from 50% to 66% is not a long way, probably 3-4 models, so this rule is great and balanced.

Easterlings - 3*
Nice rules. I think they fit well in this army. But I would like something more, Easterlings are weak at the moment, they needed one more special rule I think.

Variags of Khand - 3*
Once more, a great rule, but this army is weak and needs something more. All mounted bow "Mongolian" Khandish army is a possibility now, but the S2 bows are never gonna make it right.

The Serpent Horde - 3*
60% bows, Harad already has that and gives in each warrior poisoned blades. This makes point efficient the difference in points between haradrim warriors and serpent guards, because in +1 points SG get both +1 fight and poisoned blades. I think this rule confuses the dynamics of the army, they could just correct the profiles and add a meaningful rule.

Far Harad - 2*
Once more an anti-terror rule. This is now to surpass the lack of magic probably. Does not help that army at all even with the low courage of its models.

Corsairs of Umbar - 4*
This Backstabbers special rule is the rule of goblin prowlers. All your models can have this rule. Awesome. I am not sure if they become competitive enough, but they are gonna get a huge boost.

Sharkey's rogues - 1*
One more army. I don't know if there is even a question if this could be played. bringing 100 ruffians (who is gonna buy them) is not an option. They may do something about it.

Goblin Town - 4*
This is way better than the no-captain warband in this certain army. It's going to work, great special rule.

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Last edited by Valadorn on Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:24 pm 
Kinsman
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I still think Wildmen and Rangers are now OP. The can hoard so much better then anyone else, even Goblins.
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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:49 pm 
Elven Warrior
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McGarnacle wrote:
I still think Wildmen and Rangers are now OP. The can hoard so much better then anyone else, even Goblins.



I believe that only in very low-point tournaments they are going to be overpowered. But from 700 points on, you won't have no maneuverability even at the 4x4 table. No might and many models. In some scenarios it is going to be an auto-lose and in the others it is debatable if this army is gonna have the upper hand, because the objectives need an amount of different factors that an army must take care of. By the way, rangers are going to play in a different playstyle as I mentioned, with horses. I've seen this army in GT and it is going to be ruthless now.

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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:46 pm 
Elven Warrior
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My problem with Khand is that it's impossible to build an army that could actually benefit from said bonus. The box contains only 9 soldier (3 with bows), their cavalry is OOP and so is the King on Chariot. 40 cavalry models with bows plus heroes on chariots may have been fun to play, but as things are now, they cannot be played solo at all.

Regarding Esterling. As an army, they lack S4 models, multiattacks models and their only elité option is an upgrade. Khamul can be good, but the other heroes are mid-tier at best. They are decent in small points game, but really suffer over 600 pts. +1 to courage once they are broken is not that big, when you consider what the army is lacking.

I agree that Mordor is overpowered. +1 C and rerolling are huge in an army that's already perfect in the first place.

I don't like the Dwarves' bonus. They lose access to Gimli and Dain for it. What are they weakness? Mobility, lack of spears, no answer to magic. Does rerolling 1s compensate any of it even in smallest way? No.
I would have given them a rule to allow dwarves warriors (only them) to support each other as if they were armed with spear;a technique created after long years of tunnel fighting against goblins. Plus, what's with this rerolling 1s?

The Corsairs of Umbar get a nice addition. Plus, the Knight is on the list. That means that the Knight on Fellbeast, on a successfull charge,gets a +1 to wound since a knocked model counts as trapped. That means that the Knight will now wound most units on 4+ and 3+, removing the need to Rend tougher target.

Minas Tirith got a decent, yet minor upgrade when compared to other. What's important is that they gained access to Gandalf the white. Now, I still believe GtW to be trash, but still, he is not an independent hero. That means that MT can now have a spellcaster able to lead troops without the need to find an ally. That's good.
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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:23 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Dikey wrote:
1) My problem with Khand is that it's impossible to build an army that could actually benefit from said bonus. The box contains only 9 soldier (3 with bows), their cavalry is OOP and so is the King on Chariot. 40 cavalry models with bows plus heroes on chariots may have been fun to play, but as things are now, they cannot be played solo at all.

2) Regarding Esterling. As an army, they lack S4 models, multiattacks models and their only elité option is an upgrade. Khamul can be good, but the other heroes are mid-tier at best. They are decent in small points game, but really suffer over 600 pts. +1 to courage once they are broken is not that big, when you consider what the army is lacking.

3) I agree that Mordor is overpowered. +1 C and rerolling are huge in an army that's already perfect in the first place.

4) I don't like the Dwarves' bonus. They lose access to Gimli and Dain for it. What are they weakness? Mobility, lack of spears, no answer to magic. Does rerolling 1s compensate any of it even in smallest way? No.
I would have given them a rule to allow dwarves warriors (only them) to support each other as if they were armed with spear;a technique created after long years of tunnel fighting against goblins. Plus, what's with this rerolling 1s?

5) The Corsairs of Umbar get a nice addition. Plus, the Knight is on the list. That means that the Knight on Fellbeast, on a successfull charge,gets a +1 to wound since a knocked model counts as trapped. That means that the Knight will now wound most units on 4+ and 3+, removing the need to Rend tougher target.

6) Minas Tirith got a decent, yet minor upgrade when compared to other. What's important is that they gained access to Gandalf the white. Now, I still believe GtW to be trash, but still, he is not an independent hero. That means that MT can now have a spellcaster able to lead troops without the need to find an ally. That's good.


Nice thoughts.

1) The best think that they should do is to solve some of those problems with the set. Maybe they will not solve them but add many more... But that's only a "maybe" so let's hope they read us :)

(2) +(3) Exactly.

4) Oh I foresaw that they lost access to Gimli and Dain (he belongs only to the iron hills, even the old profile). I think we will only use dwarves as allies for their high defence... I will change their rating.

5) Is KoU a corsair? :P That's not clear, but probably indeed "corsair" goes for all models. This is as you say for KoU, let's keep that in mind.

6) Yup, GtW is good especially for 800pts where his high cost does not affect your army's structure tham much. In this way, you can still benefit of +1C and have a wizard in your army. I think at that point cost MT is going to be a tier 1 army.

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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:49 pm 
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McGarnacle wrote:
I still think Wildmen and Rangers are now OP. The can hoard so much better then anyone else, even Goblins.


Rangers aren't OOP!
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Rangers-of-the-North

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Rangers-of-Middle-earth

:-D

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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:44 am 
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I'd playtest Khand if I had an opponent. I have been hoarding the horde for years. I've always loved the models, even if they've historically been a weak army. I could probably field 700 pts of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:43 am 
Elven Warrior
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we playtested Gondor, Barad Dur and Mordor. My thoughts were pretty about it were pretty much confirmed
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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:25 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Dikey wrote:
we playtested Gondor, Barad Dur and Mordor. My thoughts were pretty about it were pretty much confirmed


Pretty much agreed. Mordor needs to change for sure. If they added a minor rule to MT would be good too. But I cannot find your opinion about BD.

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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:03 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Valadorn wrote:
Dikey wrote:
we playtested Gondor, Barad Dur and Mordor. My thoughts were pretty about it were pretty much confirmed


Pretty much agreed. Mordor needs to change for sure. If they added a minor rule to MT would be good too. But I cannot find your opinion about BD.


It's in the Battle Report section, at the end of our Club's first battle report whose link I posted (please take a look!)
Long story short, when Barad Dur bonus kicks in, it usually means death.
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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:02 pm 
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I'm writing from my phone now, so this will be short. I'll expand it once I get on my laptop.

I think the most important thing for an army bonus is that it forces you to play the army thematically. Think of the Azog's Hunters list: it forces you to play Hunter Orcs the way you expect hunters to play. Shoot first then mop up.
Look at the Dol Guldur list, you have to take Sauron for the rule to kick in. That's thematic, the army is built around Sauron and his Ringwraiths.

If we're aimlessly throwing rerolls and buffs that don't really flow with how an army was intended to play, I don't see the point.

Also, Mordor is already the most diverse army in the game, I wouldn't give it any bonus.

I'll look at each one individually when I'm on a computer
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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:39 am 
Elven Warrior
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Dikey wrote:
Valadorn wrote:
Dikey wrote:
we playtested Gondor, Barad Dur and Mordor. My thoughts were pretty about it were pretty much confirmed


Pretty much agreed. Mordor needs to change for sure. If they added a minor rule to MT would be good too. But I cannot find your opinion about BD.


It's in the Battle Report section, at the end of our Club's first battle report whose link I posted (please take a look!)
Long story short, when Barad Dur bonus kicks in, it usually means death.


Yup it is one of the best rules. But I thought that in smaller point games,where sauron comes with a huge point damage, Barad Dur won't have the choices and the great army rule won't make the difference.

Denethor is buffed btw, being a great addition in MT.

Link to the Batte report mentioned:
http://baraddruin.weebly.com/home/battle-report-the-fog-of-war-gondor-vs-barad-dur

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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:12 pm 
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To be honest, I think a lot of the perceived issues with some of these lists could be solved by breaking some of the larger ones down further, and give these smaller lists different army bonuses. I always thought Legions of Middle-earth had the right idea when it came to this.

Split Mordor into the following:
-Barad-dur
-Minas Morgul
-The Black Gate
-Cirith Ungol
-Army of Dol Guldur
-The Nazgul

Split Durin's Folk into the following:
-Durin's Folk (Generic Dwarves)
-Khazad-dum (Durin's kingdom)
-Dain's Kingdom (War of the Ring era Erebor)
-Balin's Expeditionaries

Split Minas Tirith into the following:
-Gondor (Generic Third Age list)
-Minas Tirith (War of the Ring era)

Split Isengard into the following:
-Isengard Raiders
-Isengard Legions
-Dunland
-Sharky's Rogues

Split Eregion & Rivendell into the following:
-The Kingdom of the Noldor (Second Age)
-Rivendell & Mithlond (Third Age and War of the Ring Eras)

I think it would also be good to have a generic Harad army list, representing the Southrons in the second and third ages. Also a Third Age era Rohan/Riders of Eorl list representing the Rohirrim in their earlier history.

Instead of the Dead of Dunharrow list, I'd prefer a "Return of the King" themed list, containing a mix of the three Hunters, Grey Company, Men of Lamedon, and the army of the Dead. Afterall, the Dead of Dunharrow only every fought once in the history of Middle-earth.

Just my thoughts.
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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:22 pm 
Kinsman
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Bit sad about Arnor losing the Rangers of the North, but they gained hobbit archers and those are not to be underestimated! The army bonus might not be that strong since Arvedui is such an easy target - but the hobbits are cheap and might give Arnor a few more numbers in combat. No idea how this will turn out, but Arnor got my attention. ;)
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 Post subject: Re: Review and Rating of the new experimental army bonuses
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:32 am 
Elven Warrior
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Sephalo wrote:
Bit sad about Arnor losing the Rangers of the North, but they gained hobbit archers and those are not to be underestimated! The army bonus might not be that strong since Arvedui is such an easy target - but the hobbits are cheap and might give Arnor a few more numbers in combat. No idea how this will turn out, but Arnor got my attention. ;)

we tested it and it's not very good. Arnor's still lacking troop options and Arvedui will hardly see the end of a game. 700 points games and above are out, under that points level they have a chance unless they happen to face a decent Isengard list
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