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 Post subject: Re: Pleasant anachronisms in the books
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:46 pm 
Loremaster
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whafrog wrote:
From the point of view of the time, in many ways very little had changed for centuries. Railroads were probably the biggest deal in the early 1800s, but before that, the average person (who would have been a farmer/peasant) had seen no change in his lifestyle since the Romans.


What about gunpowder?

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 Post subject: Re: Pleasant anachronisms in the books
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:27 pm 
Ringwraith
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General Elessar wrote:
What about gunpowder?


That did change warfare, but the Chinese had it long before cannons were invented...having it doesn't necessarily mean all it's uses will be discovered. But I suspect it's just that Tolkien felt about technological advancement the same way Smeagol felt about 'taters and oliphants :)
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 Post subject: Re: Pleasant anachronisms in the books
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:11 am 
Kinsman
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So what drove technical advancement after the Fourth Age? War, caused by religion or shortage of resources, and/or competition for money.

There was no religion in ME, lots of space so no real competition for resources (except Mithril), and the Elves, who led society in the West through the First Age, were more interested in flowers or jewels. In the Second Age, the Elves had had enough of fighting, so they wandered off. All the technologically advanced Men went to Numenor, and we know how well that turned out (I still think that putting them within sight of Valinor, but denying them access, was cruel). By the time of the Third Age there is a good case for saying that there should have been more development, particularly in Gondor, but after every big war there is a pause in people's desire to develop technology as they try to recover.

Maybe in the Third Age, Gondor was too exhausted (and too backward-looking) to have much scientific development, and Mordor seemed to be focussed on biological development (Uruk-hai, Olog-hai) rather than technology. Maybe if the blasting fire of Isengard had been revealed 100 years before the Ring came to light, there would have been guns in Aragorn's time. Give it a lead of 200 years, and it might have been Ellesar the sharpshooter...

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 Post subject: Re: Pleasant anachronisms in the books
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:04 pm 
Kinsman
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Well you have to remember that the men were becoming lesser men so they didn't think as much or try to figure out better ways to do things(they actually thought for themselves though unlike most of this consumer nation)...Another thing,how come there were no colleges or philosophy schools? There was always something or the other going on in Italy or Greece since Lord knows how long but there is nothing for Middle Earth.My guess is that Osgiliath had some but those were destroyed

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 Post subject: Re: Pleasant anachronisms in the books
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:15 am 
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I'm also guessing there would be alot of sanitation and health technological advancements. The shire seems to have alot of the well made food that we could have today unlike the filth of the middle ages.
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 Post subject: Re: Pleasant anachronisms in the books
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:54 pm 
Kinsman
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Bit of thread necromancy but here goes.
First off I make a living out of discussing these matters and will happily put my tuppence worth in.
The Hobbits have a post service, clocks, tobacco, tea, coffee etc that is slightly out of place in the rest of Middle-earth. However, look at it like this. The Elves are very much like the folklore tales of Faerie or the Otherworld where time seems not to move at all and indeed it is seemingly stuck. Things such as a postal service or clocks are not needed there at all. The Hobbits are more rustic than Gondorians and not warlike or as accustomed to the hardships of, for instance, the Rohirrim. In fact war hasnt affected them very much and as a result they have a world of peace without the hustle and bustle of defending their own borders. If you look at Tolkien's generation, the Hobbits are the epitome of folk who are seemingly ignorant, or comfortably unaware of the existence of the struggles of the outside world: the notion of orcs and dragons and a shadow in the east are passed off as fairy stories that the likes of Queer old Bilbo are interested in. If you look deeper you can see that the Hobbit is the little person. The ordinary lad sent off on a whole new adventure and that their comforts of clocks and post offices and quaint tea in the afternoon doesnt prepare them for life in the wider world. Both Bilbo and Sam thought the first mountains they saw were the mountains (Lonely mountain and Amon-Amarth respectively). This wider world is revealed to us through their eyes with wonder and terror, much like the soldiers of ww1 and ww2 going off for their own adventures only to find that they would rather have stayed at home. As a result we have the hobbits as the everyman or the layman who we can relate to. Imagine if we didnt have the down to earth Sam. We would have the stuffy wizard, the dreamy elf, the cocky king in hiding, the arrogant dwarf etc etc. We can also see the inclusion of the anachronisms on another level. Tolkien was a scholar of languages and an expert in Old English, Norse, Icelandic and Germanic myths and literature. He himself describes himself as a Hobbit. We are looking and recording what we see through his eyes in order to collect the tales for the red book of westmarch: we are looking from our modern point of view backwards to a greater age when sacrifices are made, songs honour fallen warriors. There is still magic in the woods. There is still green and quiet in the world and we the reader are being taken on a quest to rid the world of the very things that will destroy what we love. We cannot do it in real life but we can in fiction. So Tolkien reading the stories of Gunnalug the Wormtongue, Erik the Red, The Poetic Edda etc etc is viewing and rejoicing in a long lost age. In the Lord of the Rings we are being taken there and the anachronisms serve to make us feel familiar with the Shire as it has much of what we can recognise such as tea, coffee, post, tobacco. And it makes it more engaging and believable and exciting.

In essence, Tolkien hated change and the drive to modernity. So his works were a great place to take the best of his own lifetime and mix it with the age of heroes!

Phew!
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 Post subject: Re: Pleasant anachronisms in the books
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:02 am 
Kinsman
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Also, the beings of Middle-Earth had no need to change, they all seem fairly happy as they are - I don't hear Galadriel complaining that the glistening beauty of Caras Galadhon could do with a bit of urban smog here and there. Also, from what was going on around them, and from seeing what others' change had caused/destroyed, there was probably also some fear of technological advancement.

Saruman for example, with his explosives, displayed how advancing weaponry could kill lots and destroy castle walls, and yet he still ends up losing a battle because of some trees. Here, tradition prevails over modernity. The same can be said for when he is in the Shire, corrupting the landscape with his industrial chimneys and factories, but in the end, he is stripped of power and his soul disgraced. Tradition = 2/Modernity= 0.

And Erebor. Dwarven greed for mining precious metals and mainly gold grew so fierce that they were killed and their kingdom all but destroyed by Smaug. The Dwarves' blindness in ruining nature for the sake of increasing wealth/resources (many examples of this can be found in today's real society - think felling rainforests or even fracking) led to utter devastation for their race as a whole. Tradition = 3/Modernity = 0.

Loosely, the ancient army of the dead aiding in the Battle of Pelennor, arguably leads to Gondor's victory against the rising power of Mordor. Tradition 4/Modernity = 0.

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