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 Post subject: What if Thorin had died....
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:57 am 
Loremaster
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What do you think would have happened if Thorin had died before the company reached Erebor? Would the dwarves had continued? If so, who would lead them? In terms of movie characters, would Dwalin and Balin do so? (they are the wisest, most experienced, and know Thorin the best) or would Fili and Kili lead them since they are technically the "heirs"? Who would have been crowned King of Erebor if Thorin had died and Dain didn't show up?


Last edited by Sticky Fingersss on Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: What if Thorin had died....
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:28 pm 
Craftsman
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Another question is what of thorin lived? Would he replace gimli, March the armies of the dwarves to pellanor fields ETC.....

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 Post subject: Re: What if Thorin had died....
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:06 pm 
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In terms of movie characters? Yeah the brothers would have probably been the official leads of the expedition but Balin and Dwalin would have been really leading it. Remember that it was real Gandalf who wanted to get rid of Smaug anyhow and without him Thorin wouldn't have been able to do much. And if the brothers had survived the older one would have become king, Dain or no since they had the better claim.

Now if Thorin had lived I don't think it would have changed much in the lotr strategically since the war in the north would have kept the dwarves pretty occupied either way. Thorin wouldn't have been able to leave is kingdom for to join the nine walkers.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Thorin had died....
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:15 pm 
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I think without Thorin the quest would fail, in movie terms at least. In the film they rush quite a bit compared to books where they spent a month in those elven dungeons. In the film they had a vigorous pace yet still barely made it to the door in time. Thorin is who kept them going dispite injury of Kili, warnings from Bard about not being seen in the town, friends not being at the boat to depart, Gandalf saying to wait on the overlook. Thorin made sure they kept going. Dwalin would have listened to Balins council had he lead and so they would have gone cautiously, perhaps even waiting to the following year to make the journey with better info on the politics of the region and who to avoid (plus not having orcs hunting the leader of the party might help).
Fili and Kili would not lead the party, they are a bit brash in the film. Kili would probably have lead the party to anywhere there were women to hit on since that was the only thing on his mind the entire journey is finding a girl friend.
In the books version of characters, I think the party would have returned Thorins body to the iron hills to speak with Dain and they would have made the trip together in honor of thorins last quest and it would have been an epic battle between the dwarves and Smaug ending in many dead. If the orcs still came after that (not sure if they would cause initially in the books the orcs and wargs were coming because of the Goblin King if I am not mistaken) they would have an advantage as the elves and men may not be at the ready for a fight. it would change the course of things to be sure. The eagles most likely would not come either, nor Beorn. But a mountain taken by an army of dwarves could long be defended so perhaps Dain would still become king and would have to deal with the elves and men in a different circumstance.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Thorin had died....
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:25 am 
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Balin and Dwalin would have probably taken the lead with which ever brother, Fili or Kili, was next in line being the Heir. They probably would have made more intellegant moves as Balin would have accepted the aid of Thranduil. Fili/Kili, as King would have most likely honored their word and paid out to lake town and they would have been a more unified front when the Orcs came instead of two armies scattered and fighting one another.

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Another question is what of thorin lived? Would he replace gimli, March the armies of the dwarves to pellanor fields ETC.....


Book: Would a living Thorin have resisted the tempation of the Dwarven Rings as offered by the Mouth of Sauron? If he took the Rings he would sit in his mountain and watch the other nations around him burn while he sat with his rings and counting the new riches gifted to him by Sauron for taking the offer. If he did resist then Erebor would still have been under siege as it had been with Dain ruling. Without being able to break the siege he wouldn't have had the resources to march south. He also had no friendship with Gondor nor did Gondor pay him to bring an army (Tolkien himself speaks of the mercenary aspects of Dwarves who would have forged weapons for Melkior if trade had been opened up between them; also, barring those who were members of the Longbeards [who had a long standing friendship with the Elves], Dwarves fought on both sides in the Last Alliance).

In Peej's movies I don't know what motivation Thorin would have had to come south with an army. Thorin was a selfserving, short sighted fool and would probably be counting his money rather than march to the aid of some humans he doesn't know. I doubt Gimli would have meant enough to him for him to march an entire army south for him alone. He would have been more likely to march to Khazadum to avenge the loss of Balin and the Dwarves there then to go to the aid of Gondor. To me the Movie Thorin was an even bigger fool then the book Thorin.
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