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 Post subject: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:05 pm 
Craftsman
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I mean, what is the model whom you expected it to be great and then, when you looked his profile, you were so disappointed you just said "bah".

My top pick would be Amdur.
Easterling top hero. Cool model. "Lord of Blades". Blood and Glory.
Then I read 2A 2W. D6. One fate. Good fight value, but average, really average, profile. Heroes of that point range are either great warriors or have some nice rule. Amdur is a banner and that's good. But is an heck of an expensive banner. For a couple of MG more there's Shagrat, one who could really wreck havoc in enemy lines. For 3 MG less there's Balin, who (in my experience) always axed Amdur down.
I don't want to spend that many points to keep Amdur in the back row.

Second is Drar.
Expert shooter with average aim. Why can't there be a dwarf who is both good and deadly with a bow? It's not like he and Murin came for cheap. While Kalazal makes Murin worth his being 10 points more then a captain with shield, Drar was always disappointing for me.

As unit, I would say the Dwarf Ranger with bow.
It's the only unit whom, to have a COMMON bow, has to pay 3 TIMES the price everyone else has. It's even more expensive than the longbow. And same goes for the Throwing weapons. Just one less point then a high elf archer, who's got better fight value and a better bow.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:38 pm 
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Most elven warriors, numenorean warriors and several others.
Because their sculpts wear heavy armour, while the profile does just have armour

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:41 pm 
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Nice topic!

For me:

-Grimmhamners: They look like they are extremely tough and hard hitters but they have a lower defence than an Erebor dwarf with shield and do cost more.
- Balrog: Already mentioned several times. He should be nearly as strong as Smaug or at least as a dragon but he is far from being worth his points.
- Windlance: I really like the miniature and it is supposed to be a very good siege weapon, made carefully and very dangerous. However, it's the worst siege weapon in the game. It has no pricing shot like the ballista from uruks, it doesn't have multiple hits like the catapults. It costs a lot of points but is far from being worth them, especially in a points match. Imagine if it would have been a s10 crossbow with auto kill, this would be really good. Now you have to pay 46 goblins with shield for it plus Bard; they will never get their points back. I also hoped that Girion could take it, too for having a nice Dale army.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:56 pm 
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truck22 wrote:
Most elven warriors, numenorean warriors and several others.
Because their sculpts wear heavy armour, while the profile does just have armour


this, is my biggist frustration, beatifull models, and most have many layers of armour, which should be according to elven skill be of high quality, and yet with all those metal layers, and enemies with nowadays mostly str 4 they only have 'normal' armour. a pitty. First time I had this was when the metal galadhrim came out, beatifull models, with many layesr of armour, who where supposed to stop the uruk hai ( no shield option back then ) and still had def. 4...

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:22 pm 
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Smaug. Just 20 wounds, only a single free Will per turn for blasting fire or spells, flames can be avoided by Fate, special Barge will just about kill any warriors on a 3+. Rubbish. Nah, just kidding.

Seriously though.. Mirkwood Spiders. The normal big Arachnids are pretty scary; soft but very strong. These have a lower Fight value than a Hobbit (Shirriff). And massive bases, which made them appear much scarier than they turned out to be. For 25% more points than Giant Spiders.

Mirkwood Captain also deserves a mention. Not a bad profile, but there simply never is any reason to take him over a Palace Guard Captain. Same points, both can shield, have an Elven blade (ish), but the Guard Captain is D7 (rather than the measly 5), has Bodyguard and +1 F when near Thranduil. A pity, as the model is lovely (indeed much better than the PG Captains).

And let's not forget Anduril. The blade that was broken and reforged.. often only giving +1 to Wound (effectively), and more overpriced than Frodo.

In the long run, the point regarding the Elven armour above has annoyed me most though. Galadhrim should have heavy armour, end of. They show more protection than the 2nd Age Elves, but get the same Defence value as Rangers of Gondor, who wear a few bits of leather. Strange stuff.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:40 pm 
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Id absolutely agree with pretty much everything said so far.
Especially the grim hammers...

edit: I agree with Coenus too....didnt think of those at all but yeah. I think spiders could be a cool addition to an army, but they absolutely suck.

Love the topic btw....I feel this about A LOT of models actually. Many I never even consider using. I dont feel that way about all of these models, but many I do.....

For me:

Arwen: All those points for only natures wrath. I get it.....shes support, but I was just hoping for Something cooler from her.

High Elves: The best fighters in middle earth? Limited options, no two attack models, and limited killed power with strength. I would be happy for anyone in a tournament to come against me with an only high elf army, not including all mounted Knights of Rivendell.

Galadhrim: I use these all the time, but I mean....full body armor and a shield, and still cant get defense 6? What, is it the lack of helmet?

Their knights-absolutely over costed. Played against them several times and I dont worry about them at all. They never make their points back.

Frodo/Bilbo: The ring is cool, but besides fluff these things are worthless in any competition.

Merry/Pippin: NO MIGHT? Did you see what they did in the films.....even in Moria, they deserve one.....Jesus.....

Aragorn the King: Worth his points? Hardly. Anduril is also the only thing unique about this profile......

Warriors of Minis Tirith/Osgiliath veterans: Theyve been fighting Mordor for how long in the greatest City of Men and they are fight 3? I guess thats for balance but meh. And then at the very least, veterans youd think would have better combat prowess.....nope.

Theoden-Nuff said

Kings Huntsman-Easily killable and a rule that very rarely makes him worth his points.

Dunedain-1 pt less than a Ranger of the North with less defense....a garbage defense rating.....why EVER besides fluff take these things.

Dragon/Shelob-Take a wound and maybe flee?? Wow.

Gulavhar-So many points, looks amazing.....defense 5.......so he's useless against Harad, Elves, Isengard x bows, grey company, Legolas period, Rohrrim, etc unless you use him with surgical finess.

Gothmog-Needs to be upgraded to almost, or exactly 150 points from his base profile to be useful, or survive against tough troops, with a very limited special rule.....

Morgul Knights-Nothing special, and not that tough. Ive played against them and dominated them every time.

Lurtz-Not close to what he should have been

Thrydan-Leader of the Dunlendings and fight 4?? Wow.

Most easterlings-They look so cool, and most of their heroes are weak.

Eagles-Think theyd have some cool rule for all those points

Palace Guard-Look amazing, and way way over costed

Gundabad Orcs-Soft fight....unimpressive for such amazing looking models.

Wargs-Hmm....I guess for warg riders, theyre ok.....but there should be a tough dismounted warg.....the fellowship and thorins company all feared on foot wargs, but in game even three of those leaders can take on 10 wargs like NOTHING. Idk....maybe a higher point cost warg with two wounds or 2 attacks on the charge.....but cant be mounted.

Thats it as far as I cant tell. Those look cool and just dont live up to the aesthetic hype.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:54 pm 
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I totaly agree with the other things, especially with the wargs and mirkwood spiders. If the spiders would be allowed to use their special rule like a throwing weapon, they would be good (if wargs would get +1 A when attacking, they should get it, too)

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:05 pm 
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I am not just talking about only overpriced models, of course. But models that disappoint you once you look at their rule. They may even be well balanced and good, in their way, but that's just not what you were expecting.

Quote:
Arwen: All those points for only natures wrath. I get it.....shes support, but I was just hoping for Something cooler from her.


Right. But I also wonder why on earth she has fight 6. Even in the movie, she just barely draws her sword. Am I supposed to think she has been trained so hard in the art of fighting pitifully? But, even with my "judgement suspended" she's still overpriced.

Esterling: introduced as warriors, trained in the arts of war. They are not bad for their points, but nothing special: minas tirith in red and gold. the Black Dragon upgrade is overpriced.
What really bothers me is that esterling are described as fine warriors, elité and stuff when they are not. They are regular infantry.

Anduril: for the same price, you can get a Faramir. Makes Aragorn way overcosted, considering that, for that much points, your opponent can get a troll captain a mordor troll.

Grimhammers: How could I forget to mention them? I hate them. For the same points, you get a Khazad Guard, with one more Strengh, one more Defence and a Bodyguard rule. With the new rules, throwing weapons is not as effective as it was, and they are expensive.

Eagles: Ok, they fly. But they are nowhere near as powerful as Mordor trolls. Gwaihir is extremely disappointing.

Knight of the white tower: I expected more from a master-of-arms.

King's Huntsman: the inability to lead a warband and to mount a horse kills him.

New Legolas: fight 7, 3 attacks. I know that it's supposed to mirror the movie, but is plain ridicolous (just like defiying gravity scene). Legolas is an archer, not a warrior. I say BAH because of how powerful they made him. Unfair. He took enough of the spotlight in the movie (and that's from one who said "it's ok from him to be there. He's the son of Thranduil, after all". Totally changed my mind). Oh, and he also got orcrist.

CIRDAN: No words about it. unarmed, unarmored, no offensive spell and limited will. For a lot of points.

Celeborn: Ain't bad for what it is. But at the same price you find Glorfindel and Gil-Galad. Pays too much for his limited magic.

hobbit's Balin: Balin was supposed to be younger than Thorin, but that's PJ's fault. That aside, I hated that GW decided to ignore its own continuity.

Eowyn: there's no way in hell she could ever do something even close to what she did in the book/movie.

Halbarad: can use his bow while holding a banner, but he still has the penalty when fighting??? What the heck??

Thrain: Same problems I have with Celeborn. Ain't bad, but for that price you can find better. If your opponent's army does not include Azog, it's a waste of points.

Shieldbearer: many love him, but I don't. I expected him to be something more.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:20 pm 
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Quote:
- Balrog: Already mentioned several times. He should be nearly as strong as Smaug or at least as a dragon but he is far from being worth his points.


Ditto!
We are talking about a Maiar. A terrifying demon of shadow and flame...... He really needs a profile that justifies all those points. Plus might and fate points.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:09 pm 
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Grimbold, we clearly see him riding a horse in the films, and he looks nothing like the mini

As other have said Mirkwood Spiders what's up with that fight 2, nothing with a 60mm base should ever have F2, also the lack of movement and climbing abilities is shocking

Also Great Beast of Gorgoroth it's a monster with F3, ties with orcs and men Wtf, no-one ever uses them because they're simply too expensive and less reliable than a Mordor troll and they have C2 which means they're not going to do too well at charging those high priority targets.

Minas tirith and Easterlings definitely do not lift either.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:24 am 
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Grungehog wrote:
Grimbold, we clearly see him riding a horse in the films, and he looks nothing like the mini


That aside, he is shown as a sturdy, strong man, but actually is just a captain with a 2 handed axe (and regular penalty). there's really nothing unique aside from the Helmlingas upgrade.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:27 pm 
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I agree with most of the units people have listed, very much a case of style of substance :( My main gripe with some of the new Hobbit units is simply lack of options! For example:

Erebor Dwarfs - They do have quite a few equipment options but not Dwarf Bows ! Except for Kili (although he loses that with his new profile), not a single model has a ranged weapon other than throwing weapons, which suffer from pathetic range, bear in mind the Dwarven Bows are almost as good as Elven Bows (less range though)

Mirkwood Armoured Elves - Don't get me wrong, I do actually love the infantry units, but the lack of a banner or war horn is a shame :( And the low defence even with a Shield is an issue, same as the Galadhrim Warriors mentioned already. The Mirkwood Armoured Cavalry however are truely awful, expensive and zero options, no Shields, Bows nothing! Yes they have a boost near Thranduil but fitting them into an already quite pricey army is going to be very hard I reckon

Gundabad Orcs - Again, no option for ranged weapons :( It's really weird that the only evil Hobbit army with Bows is the Hunter Orcs. Also, no banner or war horn again !

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:08 am 
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It seems to me that almost every single model in the game has been mentioned here.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:51 pm 
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Draugluin wrote:
It seems to me that almost every single model in the game has been mentioned here.


Nobody said anything about the goblins and Harad.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:17 pm 
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Gildor: 1M, 1F and D4 on an expensive combat hero?!?!?
High Elf Stormcaller: By no means a bad model, on the contrary, he is good, but the Galadhrim Stormcaller is so much better for the same points.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:18 am 
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WoundedWarsong wrote:
I agree with most of the units people have listed, very much a case of style of substance :( My main gripe with some of the new Hobbit units is simply lack of options! For example:

Erebor Dwarfs - They do have quite a few equipment options but not Dwarf Bows ! Except for Kili (although he loses that with his new profile), not a single model has a ranged weapon other than throwing weapons, which suffer from pathetic range, bear in mind the Dwarven Bows are almost as good as Elven Bows (less range thoughI

Gundabad Orcs - Again, no option for ranged weapons :( It's really weird that the only evil Hobbit army with Bows is the Hunter Orcs. Also, no banner or war horn again !



Really? Orc Bows usually such and Imo dwarf Bows distract from what you're supposed to do with dwarves and that's go all in, in combat.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:00 pm 
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I read that many aren't happy with elves having only light armor. I must say, I'm good with it, instead.
Those are basically wood elves, whose only goal is to protect their kingdoms. That means they have to fight in woodlands, mostly. Heavy armor isn't very good if you have to move fast between trees and high grass. Mobility and acrobatic fighting are their specialties, and that requires freedom of movement.
The High Elves of the Last Alliance had to fight on an open battlefield, which requires a whole different approach to the battle.

After the Hobbit Trilogy, I hate elves even more.
now more than ever, I really feel the need to give those b***ards a good hammering when possible.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:06 pm 
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I thought of armour counting as heavy armour for Defence only maybe?

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:05 am 
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Dikey wrote:
As unit, I would say the Dwarf Ranger with bow.
It's the only unit whom, to have a COMMON bow, has to pay 3 TIMES the price everyone else has. It's even more expensive than the longbow. And same goes for the Throwing weapons. Just one less point then a high elf archer, who's got better fight value and a better bow.


It's a dwarf longbow not a common bow if that helps.

For me it's:
Lurtz, needs a special rule
Theoden, as above
Eowyn, same again.
GrimHammers, strength 4 please!

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:45 am 
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rumtap wrote:
Dikey wrote:
As unit, I would say the Dwarf Ranger with bow.
It's the only unit whom, to have a COMMON bow, has to pay 3 TIMES the price everyone else has. It's even more expensive than the longbow. And same goes for the Throwing weapons. Just one less point then a high elf archer, who's got better fight value and a better bow.


It's a dwarf longbow not a common bow if that helps.


They may call it "Divine Dwarf Uberbow", it doesn't change the fact that is, by all means, a common bow. Only difference is that a dwarf ranger has to pay 3 points for that while literally everyone else pays 1. It makes no sense.
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