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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:55 am 
Craftsman
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I dont want to be in devils defence in this topic nor start an argument but one of things i really liked on lotr gaming over WH40k and WHFB is the balance between armies (atleast at most part).

I see much speculation over false profiles (not that all are perfect) and you forget that a point cost of a unit doest always come from his stat line but also the list it belongs to.
For example if you have an army like harad, very offensive with little def and add a unit with 6 def it would definately cost more than a warrior of minas tirith even if they the same stat line because then you overgo one of harads weaknesses making them an unbeatable army.

1-dwarf rangers, i think its very logic to have a very expensive archer that has more human ranger like starts and wargear but costs more than an elf.
They are dwarfs and they never ment to be good aiming archers, but still you get the option if you pay more points.
2-Lurtz, even tho i like him as an archer the truth is that isengard doesnt need a second archer beast hero, there is already one counting for 2 :(
And also Isengard should really not have powerfull hereos and by that i mean hereoes with 3A 3W ect (other than mauhur) because they already have access t0 powerfull units,elite archery,cheap units, elites, magic and if you throw a str 5 with 3 attacks lurtz also they break the balance.
3-Theoden, completely agree that he needs a new more of a commander profile.
4- Wood elves. surely the galadhrim/mirkwood armor looks like a heavy armor but remeber that giving elves a def 6 option while having archery,magic,high fight, high courage, powefull heroes is also breaking the balance between armies.
5-Easterling warriors, id agree that they are bah :) but because they are the ONLY unit in easterling army, if they had more choices the phalanx rule is awsome because with paying a little for pikes you have a flawless formation (no def 5 units to fear flank)
6-Amdur, i would be much happier with a better stat line as he is the only named hero among easterlings (other than khamul) but then again he has some very unique choices like regaining a point of might (rare occasions but remember how much you would pay for him if he was starting with 4 might :) ) and also one of the 2 models that can use 2h wep while mounted, he is not that bad.
7-chariots. While i cheered when i saw that they can barge or rend and finally worth something, when they removed that option with FAQ they went back to ''bah''


An army alwasy needs a weakness, whether this is poor def, lack of archery, lack of cavalry, lack of strong heroes or very have everything but very expensive points wise.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:04 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Quote:
For example if you have an army like harad, very offensive with little def and add a unit with 6 def it would definately cost more than a warrior of minas tirith even if they the same stat line because then you overgo one of harads weaknesses making them an unbeatable army.


I see things in a different way. A haradrim with bow comes at the same price of a Rohirrim with bow and have the same statline. A Esterling soldier is the perfect counterpart to the Minas Tirith soldier, and came at the same price. For the most part, similar units have similar price in points (althought, in the examples I posted, the evil counterpart has a rule that makes them better on some occasion).
I have no problem with a Dwarf ranger being expensive. I have problem with the Dwarf ranger paying 3 points for a bow and for Throwing weapons.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:26 pm 
Elven Elder
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They're paying 2 points for the extra shoot value. Warriors of Harad pay 2 for their extra shoot value, so dwarves do too.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:48 pm 
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Draugluin wrote:
They're paying 2 points for the extra shoot value. Warriors of Harad pay 2 for their extra shoot value, so dwarves do too.

their paying for a profile upgrade, not a piece of equipment.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:08 pm 
Elven Elder
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They then have to buy a bow separately, so they actually are paying 3 points for 3+ shooting, which is the exact same thing the rangers are doing. The only difference is that the dwarf rangers pay for their upgrade when they buy their bow or throwing axes. So no, they aren't paying 3 points for a bow, they're paying 3 points for a bow and an upgrade.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:57 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Draugluin wrote:
They then have to buy a bow separately, so they actually are paying 3 points for 3+ shooting, which is the exact same thing the rangers are doing. The only difference is that the dwarf rangers pay for their upgrade when they buy their bow or throwing axes. So no, they aren't paying 3 points for a bow, they're paying 3 points for a bow and an upgrade.


According to this, paying 3 points for Throwing Weapons (normal cost 2) is a discounted price, because it should be four points (2+2).
Thing is, one should pay for the upgrade in their profile. not in the equipment.

But, I think we should end this debate. This topic is not about dwarf rangers, after all.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:00 pm 
Elven Elder
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Actually no, they shouldn't pay for the upgrade in their profile, because otherwise they would be 9pts base. As it is, they are very cheap for their profile as a flanking force if you don't give them bows. By applying the upgrade cost to the bow and not the base profile, they have a use outside of the shoot phase. And yes, they do get a discount for their throwing weapons. I don't think having a conversation about a unit that made you go "Bah" is inappropriate here.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:24 pm 
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Draugluin wrote:
Actually no, they shouldn't pay for the upgrade in their profile, because otherwise they would be 9pts base. As it is, they are very cheap for their profile as a flanking force if you don't give them bows. By applying the upgrade cost to the bow and not the base profile, they have a use outside of the shoot phase. And yes, they do get a discount for their throwing weapons. I don't think having a conversation about a unit that made you go "Bah" is inappropriate here.


Point is, the 2 more points for better shooting value is not law. Think of Rangers of Gondor: they have the same price of a Minas Tirith Bowmen. One less point of armour, but better Fight both in melee and from afar. Rohan outrider have the same price of Rohirrim with bow, but with better aim.
Why shouldn't it be the same with dwarves?
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:44 pm 
Elven Elder
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Because whoever wrote the rules wasn't exactly consistent. Harad pays 2, dwarves pay 2, Rohan pays 1 and Gondor pays none. Compare the Warriors of Karna with the Watchers of Karna, 1 point more gets the Watcher who has better fight, attacks and courage. Then compare dwarves to WoMT, for 1 point more they gain 1 fight, 1 defence, and one courage with -1 movement. So 1" supposed costs 2 points, but then you look at Mauhur or Gildor's upgrades, which give 2" for 1 point. Whoever wrote the rules was not all that consistent.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:58 pm 
Craftsman
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A dwarf longbow is +1 strength over a regular bow so should be more expensive. I'm not sure how you can call it common. Though i would feel better if it was 2 points instead of 3.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:34 am 
Elven Elder
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It's not Str3, it's just a regular bow.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:00 am 
Elven Elder
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When I saw this thread I thought you were asking about the miniatures. There has been some stat creep but playing the figures in scenarios it does not matter as much.
The older models are less effective against some of the new.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:03 am 
Craftsman
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Draugluin wrote:
It's not Str3, it's just a regular bow.


Their equipment says dwarf longbow

The rule book says dwarf bow and a longbow are strength 3 weapons.

FAQ does not say any different.

I can't see why they would be regarded as strength 2.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:49 am 
Elven Elder
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I don't have the Free Peoples book, but I'm 90% sure that it says that they are considered to be regular bows. Thus, they are regular, str2 bows.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:24 am 
Elven Warrior
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rumtap wrote:
Draugluin wrote:
It's not Str3, it's just a regular bow.


Their equipment says dwarf longbow

The rule book says dwarf bow and a longbow are strength 3 weapons.

FAQ does not say any different.

I can't see why they would be regarded as strength 2.


In the free people rulebook, it's written as such:
Dwarf Longbow (Bow)

Is a common bow


Last edited by Dikey on Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:42 am 
Craftsman
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Well if that is the case it's bs and I join the chorus of protesters, especially as I picked up a box believing they were strength 3.

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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:43 am 
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The nomenclature is there to.. well, I don't know. Confuse people. A Dwarf longbow just counts as a regular bow. Imagine it to be a long bow compared to a Dwarf, but just a bow for a human.

There is no clear reason for them to pay thrice as much for a simple bow, but it's just the way it is. Shooting values have never been part of the cost of the weapons, otherwise a Watcher of Kârna really should pay more for a bow than an orc (and the former are already vastly underpriced).
If anything, the regular Dwarf bows are better as far as I'm concerned, their S3 generally making up for the reduced range (especially when armies are deployed close to each other anyway).

That being said, Rangers are tough little buggers, and can certainly still be worth their points. Especially when there's some rocky terrain on the table...
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:43 am 
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If you mean "models" as in the looks:

1. Azog, the leutanant of Sauron. "Ok folks, let's do some stretching and hear those spines click-click" - nuff said?

2. Azog the Defiler (first one released) - the model doesn't reflect his strength shown in the film and he just looks too skinny, there is no "beef" about him.

One of "those" things that just make no sense:

Radagast on the Great Eagle... the Eagle is plastic (correct?)... Radagast is resin... the single plastic Eagle from the set of 2 for 30 quid would be worth 15 quid according to their pricing policy... but the kit of Radagast on the Eagle costs 40.. which means that the sitting model of Radagast costs 25 GBP?!

"Models" in terms of rules:

1. Grim Hammers - looking so tough and everything, they should have the same defense as a Warrior of Erebor with a shield, not be one defense point less than that, while looking like they are obviously much better armoured.

2. Easterlings - just making them a little bit stronger or increasing their basic defence value by 1 would have been pretty nice to represent their nature. Also, Black Dragons should be given an extra special rule to be actually worth their points value, maybe re-rolling failed duel rolls, or failed duel rolls of 1 for example. Or having them as a seperate model entry that has all the stuff i listed, but equipped with two swords instead and thus having an extra attack, only the re-rolling failed duel part would only be applied when rolled a 1, so they arent too crazy strong for a regular troop.

3. Many armies do not have any siege weapons. A bolt thrower, ballista or at least a battering ram (if you play siege scenarios) would be good to have for every army, not just a handful of them.

4. Dain the King of Erebor's defense of 9 is just too crazy and he is nearly impossible to kill. I think defense 9 is way too much for any human-sized kinda model. Shouldn't be more than 8 in my opinion.

5. Balrog just needs to be way stronger.

6. Dragon that can flee any time is just stupid.

Thats what i got so far on my list that annoys me, some of it annoys me a lot, other stuff - maybe not so much.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:31 am 
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Quote:
4. Dain the King of Erebor's defense of 9 is just too crazy and he is nearly impossible to kill. I think defense 9 is way too much for any human-sized kinda model. Shouldn't be more than 8 in my opinion.


Is a lot easier than you think, actually. A monster could rend him on a 3+. The Goblin King of AUJ has an highter fight value, same might and the ability to rend, which allows him to get rid of Dain at any time. Uruk captains match his fight and wound Dain on a 6 rather than 6/4 (S4 models) or 6/5 (S5 models). A Nazgul on Fell beast could just cast immobilize and then throw him around.
There are actually lots and lots of way to wound him, expecially when fighting at 700 points or more.
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 Post subject: Re: What models made you say "Bah!" ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:29 am 
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ak150884 wrote:
Radagast on the Great Eagle... the Eagle is plastic (correct?)... Radagast is resin... the single plastic Eagle from the set of 2 for 30 quid would be worth 15 quid according to their pricing policy... but the kit of Radagast on the Eagle costs 40.. which means that the sitting model of Radagast costs 25 GBP?!


The whole kit is resin, a resin eagle (Gwaihir) is £25 and named resin Heroes can get to £15 (Beorn, new Tauriel, Old Bolg) - there's your £40 justification.

That said, it's a ridiculous pose IMHO, it's a plastic eagle and EFGT conversion down the line for me! :-)

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