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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:57 am 
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Like this if you crie everytim.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:55 am 
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For me, the things I dislike in the new book are basically the things I didn't like in the film - although I appreciate the efforts to replicate them, and doing the reverse wouldn't have been right either. In as far as one can compare them, I enjoy the book rather more than the movie in fact!

Echoing the comments of others, I'm fairly certain the sense of disbalance will be fixed when the Lord of the Rings overhaul occurs. The way the system has progressed, there is very little scope for variation in the basic profile and I like the inclusion of thematic special rules for all named characters: much as I love the Lord of the Rings setting, having all those recognisable faces as just a captain with an extra point of might is tremendously boring. The likes of Lurtz and Grishnak will probably finally become interesting to take!

And thank the Valar that Alfrid is fixed.
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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:42 am 
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Sadly, from what I know, the LOTR update won't be anytime soon. The new rulebook will be summer 2017, but I have gotten the impression that the LOTR update has been emphasized as being a late release.

Anyone know about a quick patch to give the lotr armies bonuses for being themed while we wait?

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:16 am 
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Oh man, finally got my book. Not to keep harping on the mirkwood woes, but they're my favorite army. The Palace guard and rangers aren't better costed. The guards are down one point, which is better then nothing but they're paying points for body guard, which is pretty weak on elves, while the gundabad orcs and dwarves and laketown all get rules basically for free. And Thranduil cost more? I would dearly like cheaper elites for Thranduil's hall, as I do for most lists, I like when you can build a little variety into armies without being drastically penalized for it but as it is now they're just over costed elites to go with they're over costed troops.

Feels bad man.

I mostly like the rest of the profiles though, I sorta wish the Gundabad trolls were cheaper and a little weaker? They're a ton of points and I feel like they aren't that much better then say a cave troll or Mordor troll? Some of my favorite looking characters, looking forward to those guys.

I think my favorite profiles are the Balin Champ who gets an extra attack! Finally! He's my favorite Thorin's co character but he's previously been super garbage, so thats cool. I also really like the young Thorin. Anyone else catch his one turn Du Bekar str increase for near by dwarves? Vey cool. I also like the Iron Hill's captain a lot! Bats should be cool too.

Like I've mentioned before, I like the game design direction of all of the new stuff and I can't wait for the lotr profiles to be reworked. I am still bummed though pretty much just for the mirkwood stuff, which since its just coming out now will probably not be reworked for quite a while to come :/ so with that in mind, I hope they don't change the old wood elf list now :D

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:26 am 
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BOLG and AZOG

Theres a lot in this topic I could respond to but Ill think about that later. As for your message, 'better' than ever may not be true at all.

Bolg and Azog have always been over costed. Theyve been over costed for what you can do with them, what you play against, and what you can take in their army.

The things they could previously lead was Very limited.
They always were too expensive points wise. Bolgs old profile at 210 points was basically Prince Imrahil with rearranged special rules.

Bolg had higher strength but no lance option. A mount with less defense. 1 higher fight. Imrahil has a 12" banner and standfast to certain troops. Bolg has a special rule that he doesnt get to often in the experiences Ive had playing him.

And Bolg with a mount was 55 points more than Imrahil with a mount and a lance. Ridiculous......people seem to hate on evil because they like playing good. I will forever defend fairly pointed evil models.

Thats just one model that jumps out. I can go on too.


As for Azog the old profile costed 250 points! Are you kidding me.....lol no game below 650 points could you fit him in and even at 650 points youd have him and 3 warbands if the rest of your army and heroes are cheap or weak.

He is more than fairly costed as well.

And finally......all of you guys forget.......they both now have 1 fate. Thats miserable.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:27 pm 
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For the people saying that LotR models can't compete, just wait 6 months. If Azog/Dain/Thranduil are any indication, they'll make Aragorn pretty awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:01 pm 
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Draugluin wrote:
For the people saying that LotR models can't compete, just wait 6 months. If Azog/Dain/Thranduil are any indication, they'll make Aragorn pretty awesome.



That's another thing people seem to worry about a lot butt from what I've heard from The Games Workshop managers I talk to it seems like they think everything is going to direction of having special abilities and lowering in points.

People worrying now but it will all balance out later.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:29 pm 
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Yeah because that's what this games needs right? Another book worth of rules to memorize and every other hero with some power that makes them an exception to one or more of those rules.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:21 pm 
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Wan Shi Tong wrote:
Yeah because that's what this games needs right? Another book worth of rules to memorize and every other hero with some power that makes them an exception to one or more of those rules.



Well I obviously see you're not a fan of the way the rules are going. That's putting it lightly ha-ha.

I mean.....most of these characters are not changing that much. The new ones are more complicated sure but I already memorized most of the abilities of the new models after a glance or two. I think most people who play the game are smart enough too. We're tabletop gamers.

Anyway I do agree there are a little over zealous profiles but it's gonna haooen. We can either deal with it or just stop playing. I'm just happy this new push is bringing more people back into the hobby.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong but a lot of people are asking for a major overhaul to the old profiles. I won't disagree with them.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:24 am 
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With the greater emphasis on single faction armies, I doubt that it'll be too hard to remember everything.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:41 pm 
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That's the thing - you don't have to know every single rule that exists during a game, you only have to be aware of the stuff that's on the table - which tend to be, what, 4 types of soldiers and about as many heroes per army (if that, and not all of those will have special rules)? Personally definitely prefer having interesting heroes rather than just another captain with +1 Might, and special rules allow the characters without magical powers or incredible combat prowess to still really add something to an army. Just imagine what they'll make of Théoden, Lurtz, the Balrog.. all those profiles people have wanted to see improved for years now.
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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:31 pm 
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Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me that most people don't actually try to commit the rules, wargear, and special rules to memory? That letting your opponents tell you what everything they have does at the start of a game or spending 30min looking over the rules after set up is standard practice?

What I am talking about is when you sit down to explain how the game works to somebody new and you tell them how about phases and heroics and movement order and all that. Then for the next year you have to play games with them where you say "oh yeah this guy doesn't work normally he has a special rule that lets him..." for every named hero you field. Or "yeah that's what would normally happen but for this guy it's different because... so you cant do that". As someone who started play against people with large collections and a good grasp of the rules I had to spend years of my life building up armies out of the books I had only to get them to the tabletop and find out that some named ring-wraith, or whatever, negated the main strength of my army I can firmly say its not a good time. New players aren't going to be encouraged to start playing by the massive buy in cost of this new big hero, large army, high points style, and they aren't going to want to buy 7 or 8 different army books to to double check that the force they want to build wont get wrecked by some obscure hard counter unit from the far corner of the map.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:21 pm 
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I definitely understand Wan and Brown's points.

I think people fear that 40k will happen to LOTR or something along those lines. It is the idea of "Oh, what are a few more rules?" turning into "Oh feth, that is a lot of rules". As well as the idea that SBG was such a low learning curve for new players that getting into it was easy and that was the selling point for a lot of the players I have personally met. The simplicity brought incredible balance and accessibility.

I like more flavorful heroes, I like simplicity and accessibility. I think both can still be achieved easily, with a smart mind. Introducing players now relies on you introducing them with captains and grunts, maybe a named character. Of course, this scales to whatever skill level you are teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:53 pm 
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Wan Shi Tong wrote:
Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me that most people don't actually try to commit the rules, wargear, and special rules to memory? That letting your opponents tell you what everything they have does at the start of a game or spending 30min looking over the rules after set up is standard practice?

What I am talking about is when you sit down to explain how the game works to somebody new and you tell them how about phases and heroics and movement order and all that. Then for the next year you have to play games with them where you say "oh yeah this guy doesn't work normally he has a special rule that lets him..." for every named hero you field. Or "yeah that's what would normally happen but for this guy it's different because... so you cant do that". As someone who started play against people with large collections and a good grasp of the rules I had to spend years of my life building up armies out of the books I had only to get them to the tabletop and find out that some named ring-wraith, or whatever, negated the main strength of my army I can firmly say its not a good time. New players aren't going to be encouraged to start playing by the massive buy in cost of this new big hero, large army, high points style, and they aren't going to want to buy 7 or 8 different army books to to double check that the force they want to build wont get wrecked by some obscure hard counter unit from the far corner of the map.


1-As for your first point yes. I expect myself and my opponent to be at least somewhat familiar with whats on the battlefield. If I play someone and have to explain all my units rules to them I feel its doing the entire match a disservice. In Lord of the Rings I hope it never ends up like that. Thats exactly what puts me off games like 40k and Fantasy. I never played a games workshop game other than LOTR until Sigmar came out which I enjoy a lot, but as a less serious game. Even there though, its not like the other games.

2-I see points youre trying to make about this game and explaining the rules but I dont agree fully. When I explain the game to people now, and when I did in the past, I never needed to go into certain rules.

With the new rules the same remains. Priority, Movement, Shooting, Combat. Never have I said to someone and this is how combat works but be careful in case your A hole opponent brings a shaman that overpowered thing! But dont worry cause if you sap his will he cant do fury! Etc. Nobody should teach the game like that. Most newcomers done want to know that right off that bat anyway. I see where youre going with the rules.

3-This is a big point here.....I absolutely oppose the financial/business practices of the people selling us these products. Your point on spending all this money just to have armies that shut you down instantly can be terrible. Buying multiple books is terrible. I've already purchased the new one, and I had the two old ones it replaced....the Desolation of Smaug and BOFA. It sucks. I disagree with it. My only hope is that they do balance the old profiles with the new ones.

That being said, I believe we as players will be able to keep up with all the rules. If youre a player like me, I know almost all of the rules by heart for profiles. I make some mistakes like with Mumaks or distance for spectres fell light etc but I already know generally what they do and how to deal with it.

I play ringwraiths all the time. I also agree they can shut down any large hero in the game if played right. Its infuriating sometimes. I feel your assumption of say....taking a new Thranduil, Thorin, old Aragorn etc and having them shut down by other units. All I can say is we will have to wait and see if the new profiles match up with the new ones and balance it out. Hopefully they will fix old profiles people are upset with. Watchers of Karna, etc

I feel like Lord of the Rings is one of the more balanced games though so far.

I think some of the biggest gaps out there are armies like Mordor vs Numenor where Numenor has no chance if both players are of equal skill etc.

It depends.

All we can do is hope. I dislike it immensely and would be kicked off these boards if I really told you how I felt about this all.......but Im just happy Im finding new people to play in my area.

Commissariat wrote:
I definitely understand Wan and Brown's points.

I think people fear that 40k will happen to LOTR or something along those lines. It is the idea of "Oh, what are a few more rules?" turning into "Oh feth, that is a lot of rules". As well as the idea that SBG was such a low learning curve for new players that getting into it was easy and that was the selling point for a lot of the players I have personally met. The simplicity brought incredible balance and accessibility.

I like more flavorful heroes, I like simplicity and accessibility. I think both can still be achieved easily, with a smart mind. Introducing players now relies on you introducing them with captains and grunts, maybe a named character. Of course, this scales to whatever skill level you are teaching.



What I compare it to is Age of Sigmar, which I enjoy a lot but clearly is more warhammery than LOTR.

The troops work as units, and each one has a special rule or two. They also have different weapons for each unit. I.E. Riders of Rohan can take swords, axes, or throwing spears only. (If you know this Im sorry...just mean to explain to everyone).

Theres a hero phase etc. Everything is more specialized. I think the Middle Earth crew is bridging a gap between the Hobbit and Sigmar. Just in the middle.

People seem to love Sigmar. I love it and other LOTR players I know love it.
Everything has fate(armor save) I like that haha. Shooting is super nerfed in comparison. Also love that.

The game can absolutely work where there are heroes with a lot of unique rules (which in its essence is lord of the rings) and basic troops as well.

I really hope gone are the days of massive shield walls against each other where only fight value and defense matters. Its so boring and dull.....Ill go play a game like Hail Casesar or something if I want that. Lord of the Rings has almost never been shieldwall battles at its core imo.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:04 am 
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Yeah I agree with lotbr, I like more specialized rules because so for most things, they fit the characters better, make them feel more like they do in books or movies. Which, in some ways I actually think makes learning and teaching a little easier since, if you've seen the movies and you look at a model you actually already have a good idea of what it will do. I actually think in homogenizing the rules as much as they did before it actually feels like how the characters or units would be or would be capable of. I think high elves are a pretty good examples of units that don't quite fit how they feel in the movies or books. You charge your elf warrior in his shinny gold armor into two goblins he rolls a 4, they get a 2 and 5, he loses they roll 4, and 5 kill him. Same thing but worse for watchers of karna or corsairs choooopping through your gorgeous Gondor army or high elves or something that thematically should be pretty powerful, or at least one to one with goblins or harad, but gets totally outclassed by, lets face it, new models that in order to keep the game fresh, kept adding things and over tuned some of them. This is where I think, Numenor is a good example but I think high elves and Gondor are up there for me as well, could use other special rules to allow them to better represent what we see in the movies or imagine from the books. And I really hope that changes will be made to the older lists and older units to bring them in line powerwise and game play wise to the newer stuff.

Admittedly, I am more of a gaming nerd and I do like interactions between rules extra dice rolls or different ways to play, but having played a handful of other games, I think there's room for LOTR to swing more that way, and still be easier to learn and play then a lot of other games. Magic the gathering is something I've played on and off for years and each time I come back to it there's 5 new edition, each that introduce a new mechanic, that interacts with older ones and there's 10-20 cards you need to know about and how they interact with other things or you'll straight up lose. That is frustrating and I totally hear you but I think its more frustrating and discouraging hobby wise to have some armies have less mechanics or game play to them, it can feel like your opponent is playing twice the game you are as they're considering how to use a wider variety of tools to try to win while you simply move your line forwards 6 inches every turn. A bit of an extreme example and obviously you have consider what your opponents army can do as well, to some of the earlier points, but, in general, I am in favor of armies becoming more flavorful and more interactive, as the newer lists seem to be.

For now though, I am just hoping the rework of LOTR goes smoothly and some of the LOTR armies will rightfully be able to go toe to toe with this goofy looking Hobbit era stuff ;p

I wanna see some Aragorns, riders of Rohan, Numenorians, and Mordor orcs run rough over amputee trolls and dwarves with star fishes wigs, curly qu beards, no beards, and starving fishermen wearing no armor ;p As it should be.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:58 am 
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polywags wrote:
Yeah I agree with lotbr, I like more specialized rules because so for most things, they fit the characters better, make them feel more like they do in books or movies.


I dislike special rules just for the sake of having special rules - far from adding to the character - IMO it detracts from immersion as arbitrarily some forces get something while others that logically might get something similar don't.

Take the Iron Hills dwarves' shieldwall rule for example - Okay spear support wasn't enough of a bonus for being in formation so we'll give a defensive bonus too.

So why don't other armies get formation bonuses? Gondor shieldwall? Easterling Pike Block? Uruk Pike Block? Rohan Mass Cavalry Charge?

Maybe it's only for "elite" armies? Then why don't Mirkwood Elves get it? They've lived a heck of a lot longer than dwarves - and look at the scene where they step aside to let Bard through - you're telling me they can't fight in formation?

If the basic rules and profiles don't have enough granularity to allow interesting variation then the solution is to improve the basic rules - not add a bewildering array of special exceptions which inevitably will not be play tested against each other.

LordoftheBrownRing wrote:
3-This is a big point here.....I absolutely oppose the financial/business practices of the people selling us these products. Your point on spending all this money just to have armies that shut you down instantly can be terrible. Buying multiple books is terrible. I've already purchased the new one, and I had the two old ones it replaced....the Desolation of Smaug and BOFA. It sucks. I disagree with it. My only hope is that they do balance the old profiles with the new ones.


^ This - I'll add that it's not only a question of finance - it's a question of quality - as long as they release rules in expensive over produced rulebooks, they can't easily tweak or update when models are inevitably discovered to be over or underpowered, or a rule wording needs clarification/correction.

If computer game companies can patch their games on a monthly/weekly basis to improve balance, fix bugs, and add functionality - surely it's not unreasonable to expect GW to do something similar:

Keep sourcebooks for Fluff only, and publish the rules/profiles instead in a separate barebones publication, with no images or photos that need liscencee approval, and print it cheaply or release it as a PDF so they could update or tweak it every year. That way when something NEEDS to be fixed, it only has to wait <12 months instead of waiting years for the next expensive publication which may never come.

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For now though, I am just hoping the rework of LOTR goes smoothly and some of the LOTR armies will rightfully be able to go toe to toe with this goofy looking Hobbit era stuff ;p


I'm pessimistic that LotRs will see a large scale rework for the simple reason that GW might not see it in it's financial interest to buff *old* models, many of which the playerbase either already has, OR are readily available on Ebay.

Some of the worst offenders might get tweaked, (Balrog, Shade, Théoden), but IMO we're more likely to see existing armies "fixed" with new releases "forcing" you to go to GW to buy models to make those forces competitive - either with invented supercheese elites, invented heroes, or Erkenbrand Westfold Redshield type upgrades - "we've improved army X but only if you include brand new $49 hero Y in your force."
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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:29 pm 
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@POLYWAGS

Absolutely. This gives the game and models more character. It gets really boring when you see two armies on the table and the only difference is numbers on their stat line.

Nowadays armies like Numenor dont have a chance. You put that army list alone against most anything and they are at a disadvantage immediately. Your example with high elves as well.

They might get easily killed by a goblin because of a bad roll....theyre not the elite troops in the game they were in the movies.


@MICHAELC

First of all Iron Hill Warriors and their pike block is probably the most outstanding attribute of their force.

Mirkwood already has their special rules showing their dominance. They can carry 100% bows. Thats huge.

Should the rohan have a cavalry bonus of some sort? Yes. Will they? Maybe...

People are already worried about old armies getting left behind when their book isnt out yet.


As for having rules just to have rules? Idk man....I like each soldier being unique and different. I hate having armies where stat line is the only thing that separates them. Its so boring.

As for purchasing I cant disagree with you. LUCKILY I run the events for my group in Chicago and I allow proxies! Mordor troll? Sure you can have it a Gundabad troll. Morannon orcs? Sure those can be Gundabad orcs. Galadhrim? Sure Palace Guards into Mirkwood elves? Yup.

Thats how I fight the man.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:07 am 
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The special rules being good or bad representations of uniqueness between soldiers is something that can never truly be resolved like many social problems. It is a matter of how you view unit profiles or how you like games to run. It is like arguing the spontaneous existence of our universe. It will be different for everyone.

I like how the game is represented by profiles, for all you need are profiles to represent bodies. The strategic mind introduces its own special rules. Frank is great at phalanx armies. However! I played MtG, I play X-Wing, and more. I just need to adjust and recognize that SBG is not going to necessarily be the same that it was before, but I was simply spoiled by a very long time between rules updates from GW.

When I look at a Warrior of Minas Tirith, I look at the statline, fluff, gear and the model. I think about what each stat means, I think about how each model looks, and then I allow my mind to forge the narrative. X stats represents their average combat skills, however, if they are lead by the mighty Boromir with his swathe of Might Points and banner then these terrified men can face the world.

When I look at the Iron Hills dwarves, their statline, their model, their gear and everything the same. I see a unit that is meant to be in tight formations and form the shieldwall of death. I see the shieldwall special rule and I instantly recognized them as being better than everyone else for they are specialized. This then makes me think of Iron Hills as a phalanx-focused military. This is me temporarily displacing the idea of the old armies. Sure, I might ask "Why doesn't this rule apply to all shields in a formation?" but then I answer myself (because for some reason I talk to myself) "Probably because these are the shieldbearers of the shieldbearers. They earned this rule".

There is nothing inherently wrong with adding special rules, afterall.... there were a lot of special rules for the Eastern Kingdoms, Harad and all their elite troops. Phalanx, Poison, Chop, etc. Don't get me started on the swathe of heroic actions, monster, and weapon strikes. I am also the only person from my playgroup who knew and understood the siege rules.

I actually hope that there is a unit that ignores the shooting penalty, because that is a simple yet flavorful twist to add like Poisoned Arrows or Chop. Not that I want to use that unit, it is just something that should exist in a game with a shooting penalty.

I think, just like with any big change, there will be a time of panic for people just like there will also be a time of glossy-eyed daze from others. I cannot formulate an honest opinion until I have all the data from GW. GW decided that instead of toning down the Hobbit Range to match the LOTR range, they are going to do the opposite, which is accomplishing relatively the same goal in my book.

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:42 am 
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Can anyone say whether Gundabad Beserkers are close to Uruk-hai Beserkers or Half Trolls of Far Harad?

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 Post subject: Re: There and Back Again New Book discussion
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:30 am 
Craftsman
Craftsman
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Location: The Waitting Place
There're probably closest to the feral Uruk-Hai actual. They have an extra 2 in of movement and a personally fury so in terms of points they are like specters or the dead of Dunharrow. But other wise they are pretty similar.

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