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 Post subject: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:09 am 
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Love the new books. Nothing’s more fun than scouting out the new profiles and seeing how your favorites fared.

Big Winners?
Big Losers?
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:17 am 
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As a faction Rohan have got to be right up there as most improved.

Otherwise from what I’ve seen the following spring to mind:

Minas Tirith Warriors - Shieldwall
High elf and galadhrim warriors - Free elves blades
Glorfindel - Now nearly immune to magic
Balrog - cheaper and more destructive
Sauron - Cheaper and more destructive + can lead warband of 24orcs.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:48 am 
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To add Rohan Royal guard compared to riders of Rohan are pretty much auto include now.

And moria gundabad Blackshields are double the cost for essentially 1 extra defence.

Fury was was nerfed, killing the auto include shamans. I suspect we'll see less magic overall now.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:02 pm 
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Goblins as a whole lost a lot. Warg marauders nerfed, autofeint removed, blackshields nerfed, Groblogs crown nerfed, shamans nerfed, non-2h prowlers removed... pretty tough.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:19 am 
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The Corsair reavers are interesting. They’re fight 4 instead of 5. But they do get the blood lust thing. I’m on the fence. Any thoughts?

Big winners seem to be Dol Amroth. They’re buffed up.
Synergy galore.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:43 pm 
Kinsman
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Tyr wrote:
Goblins as a whole lost a lot. Warg marauders nerfed, autofeint removed, blackshields nerfed, Groblogs crown nerfed, shamans nerfed, non-2h prowlers removed... pretty tough.
Eh, marauders were changed. They cost less now, and are just as effective as before until riders or the warg start getting killed.
Blackshields are actually better than before against Dwarfs, and are unchanged vs anything with defense 5 or 7 (still worse than before, but it's not all bad).
The Balrog got a massive buff.
Cave trolls are better.
Prowlers are effectively 1pt cheaper than before, because they get the 2h weapon included in the profile.
Groblog's crown now actually does something if you don't have fury active. Sure, it's weaker if you had shaman before and they didn't get sapped, but it's not worthless. +1 fight is valuable, especially combined with the +1 from the army bonus.

I don't think the faction as a whole really lost anything.


I'd say the biggest loser is the Shire. All of the warrior choices going up by 1 point is huge for a horde list, and Hobbit archers lost 6" of range.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Well... I like to look at all the lists and make some short notes about it (I have not the time now to write all my opinions down..)

Forces of Good:

Fellowship:
Army bonus: flavorwise good, otherwise okay, but most heroes have already a high courage, so it wouldn't make a hugh difference.
Good: some heroes down in points (like Aragorn), very good (or the equipment, like sting isn't worth the overload of points it was) and some nice special rules for quite some heroes. I escpecially like the ones from Gimli and Legolas. Bill has become bette too.
Bad: it's still a lot of points for the models. Strong, but you will almost always be in a big minority.

Shire:
Army bonus: hm... not convinced yet. But I'm not playing competitive and I heard that woodland creature rule is good, but we play with not that much woodland...
Good: some of the heroes became much better, like farmet Maggot and it's very nice to have some different possible army lists, like with Gandalf and Dunedain.
Bad: some heroes and, maybe more important, all the 'warriors' became less cheap. Or not cheap at all for how 'good' they are.

Rangers:
Army bonus: very good, makes the rangers dangerous in close combat.
Good: slightly less points for the heroes some of the heroes. A small army, but with army bonus playable I guess. And as a bonus the woodland creature rule, I'm not complaining.
Bad: split from Arnor, so not much heroes anymore to choose from. And the dunedain/rangers of the north are more expensive. I think the rangers of te north are worth the difference if you compare them to the dunedain. And sadly Elladan and Elrohir are gone from either list.

Númenor:
Army bonus: All right, especially against Sauron, the 'standard' enemy from Númenor, and other 'very scary things'.
Good: not sure, but I think the heroes are a bit better. The strength increase by almost all heroes and warriors is nice (in my opinion it is quite strange that the captains doesn't have more strength than the normal warriors, but I guess it's either because it would have the same as the named heroes or it's a typo...). And a high change that Anárion will be made soon, always nice to have more hero options...
Bad: Still not much to choose from (but nothing is worse in that way, just not (yet) added), maybe that will change soon.

Minas Tirith:
Army bonus: All right, see Númenor army bonus, but with the Witch-king as 'standard' enemy instead of Sauron himself.
Good: Some heroes are down in points, always nice, Aragorn and Boromir are now a better options than before. Besides those heroes, Gandalf the White is a much better warrior, first I didn't see that his new profile has an attack extra! And the shieldwall rule: very good I think. Make them much better against all the strength 4 units and heroes (or 6). Trebuchet and bolt thrower are now less points and better for that reason.
Bad: not much, only small things. I don't like that citadels can't have a spear and bow anymore. And I hoped that the veterans would have another edge. And why have the veterans not the shieldwall rule? The should be experienced enough to know how to use a shield...

Fiefdoms:
Army bonus: nice, makes the army work better together!
Good: some nice changes in rules, like the honour of Lamedon is nice. Not game changing, but okay.
Bad: some heroes up in points, I think it's fair, but not good for them as an army.

Dead of Dunharrow:
Army bonus: nice, the king is more usefull, especially since all your warriors have also the terror special rule. Warbands with only dead of dunharrow, so you can have a full 'dead' army.
Good: King of the dead is much more usefull, stronger and has one mightpoint. Warriors are a point cheaper I think and the defence of the horses from the riders is better. So, usefull changes! And they can walk on water, it's very situational, but can be very usefull.
Bad: well, I guess there's nothing worse than before.

Arnor:
Army bonus: very nice in this army, since the couragevalue is 'not that good'...
Good: not changed, but the special rule from Malbeth is still very good! I feared that it would change, because fury did, but I'm glad Malbeth is still a good support hero. Also nice that the hobbit archers are back in the list! Cheap archers, not as good as the rangers of Arnor self, but pointwise better I believe. And the Hatred (Angmar) rule is also nice to have.
Bad: The rangers don't have the hatred rule. Why not... And, what makes them slightly less good as an army: the rangers of the North, Dunedain and some heroes are split of, Elledan and Elrohir are even only in the Rivendell list.. (well, I said that before, but still...)

Rohan:
Army bonus: Whaaaat!? That was my first reaction, it was a very positive 'what' ;) I like Rohan as an all cavalry army and this gives them a very nice touch.
Good: The new 'horse lord' rule is very nice. Besides that some heroes have nice and/or flaverfull special rules. The profile from Éomer is solid, Éowyn is also stronger. And I think the (mounted) Rohan Royal Guard will be seen more play.
Bad: Sons of Eorl are not as good as before (in most cases, close to Eorl they seem a bit better, but the're very situational now...) and the Rohan Outriders are not auto included anymore.

Wildman of Drüadan:
Army bonus: I'm not impressed, situational good, but not Always.
Good: uhm, the Hatred rule, but I guess they already had it. So improvements: no, don't think.
Bad: Ghân-buri-ghân is more expensive in points. Maybe it's fair, he was underpriced. I think that 5 or 10 points less then his new pointvalue would be a fair amount of points...

Rivendell:
Army bonus: Good-ish... Re-roll is nice, but only if not moved (make sense, because if moved it would be too strong I guess).
Good: Lord of the West rule is strong, like... very strong. I have to test it, but it seems very good. Some heroes are now more likely to see more play, especially Cirdan is improved and playable. And, the sword included in the points from the warriors is good!
Bad: some heroes are much more expensive. Maybe it's fair, the twin is not auto included anymore I think. The high elf captain is 5 points more expensive than the Galadhrim captain for exactly the same profile...(why...?)

Lothlórien:
Army bonus: Good if you play against magic-heavy armies. If not, it's useless...
Good: Hand-and-a-half sword is included in the points with either the Galadhrim warriors as the Wood elfs, that's nice!
Bad: Rúmils special rule is slightly changed and I think it's not as good as it was. It's still useful, but not that powerfull anymore.

Fangorn:
Army bonus: nice I guess, especially against magic-users.
Good: nice new brutal power attack. I need to test it sometime to see if it's that good.
Bad: nothing is made worse I think... not so much profiles. Well, I hoped that there would be some different profiles for different trees (like a willow that has a wound extra, an oak with a deffence extra, something like that)

Misty Mountains:
Army bonus: nice, makes them about 25% stronger (like Rohan, only against 50% of the models and only 50% of the time).
Good: Gwaihir is much better and the monstrous charge rule makes it even better.
Bad: slighly more points to pay, but I think it's worth the change. And, not worse than it was, because it's not changed, but I hoped that some more named heroes would be included, like Landroval and Meneldor, Gwaihirs brothers.

The Kingdom of Khazad-dûm
Army bonus: a very good bonus I think. (although the name is a bit odd, I don't think that much weapons are made of mithril and I asumed it would be defensive instead of offensive)
Good: The vault warden team is made stronger against monsters, flavorwise nice and situational good. And, if you have Durin, you can make your Khazad Guards stronger. And, last but not least from the improvements, the rangers are way better balanced!
Bad: Balin is more expensive and, in my humble opinion, not worth that much. It's a good profile for sure, but I think it's a bit to expensive. And the Kings Champion is also gone up in points. Maybe it's fair, but as a big fan of this team, I don't like it...

Wanderers in the wild:
Army bonus: nothing to talk about, but it's a logic reason.
Good: well... I think nothing is made better than it was... or I missed something.
Bad: Not changed about how it was, but... why isn't Drars shootvalue gone 'up' to 3+, he has expert shot, but he's not better (yes, shoots more often, but not better per shot) than a regular warrior, even Vrasku is improved to the 3+ shootvalue! And Tom and Goldberry are now 'on a time scedule', what is bad for them, but fair to play.

I will write my opinion on the Forces of Evil later on.


Last edited by Dwarves4thewin! on Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:50 am 
Craftsman
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Kardoosh wrote:
Love the new books. Nothing’s more fun than scouting out the new profiles and seeing how your favorites fared.

Big Winners?
Big Losers?

I add point values between models, and Far Harad foot troops give you less bang for your buck. On the other hand, Minas Tirith warriors got buffed, and Ruffians are worse than orcs for the same cost. Mumak is amazing with gnarled hide and rocks, coupled with sigils of defiance... Amazing. With rappelling lines for emergency exits.

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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:53 am 
Craftsman
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Dwarves4thewin! wrote:
Well... I like to look at all the lists and make some short notes about it (I have not the time now to write all my opinions down..)

Fellowship:
Army bonus: flavorwise good, otherwise okay, but most heroes have already a high courage, so it wouldn't make a hugh difference.
Good: some heroes down in points (like Aragorn), very good (or the equipment, like sting isn't worth the overload of points it was) and some nice special rules for quite some heroes. I escpecially like the ones from Gimli and Legolas. Bill has become bette too.
Bad: it's still a lot of points for the models. Strong, but you will almost always be in a big minority.

Shire:
Army bonus: hm... not convinced yet. But I'm not playing competitive and I heard that woodland creature rule is good, but we play with not that much woodland...
Good: some of the heroes became much better, like farmet Maggot and it's very nice to have some different possible army lists, like with Gandalf and Dunedain.
Bad: some heroes and, maybe more important, all the 'warriors' became less cheap. Or not cheap at all for how 'good' they are.

Rangers:
Army bonus: very good, makes the rangers dangerous in close combat.
Good: slightly less points for the heroes some of the heroes. A small army, but with army bonus playable I guess. And as a bonus the woodland creature rule, I'm not complaining.
Bad: split from Arnor, so not much heroes anymore to choose from. And the dunedain/rangers of the north are more expensive. I think the rangers of te north are worth the difference if you compare them to the dunedain.

Númenor:
Army bonus: All right, especially against Sauron, the 'standard' enemy from Númenor, and other 'very scary things'.
Good: not sure, but I think the heroes are a bit better. The strength increase by almost all heroes and warriors is nice (in my opinion it is quite strange that the captains doesn't have more strength than the normal warriors, but I guess it's either because it would have the same as the named heroes or it's a typo...). And a high change that Anárion will be made soon, always nice to have more hero options...
Bad: Still not much to choose from (but nothing is worse in that way, just not (yet) added), maybe that will change soon.

Minas Tirith:
Army bonus: All right, see Númenor army bonus, but with the Witch-king as 'standard' enemy instead of Sauron himself.
Good: Some heroes are down in points, always nice, Aragorn and Boromir are now a better options than before. Shieldwall rule: very good I think. Make them much better against all the strength 4 units and heroes (or 6). Trebuchet and bolt thrower are now less points and better for that reason.
Bad: not much, only small things. I don't like that citadels can't have a spear and bow anymore. And I hoped that the veterans would have another edge. And why have the veterans not the shieldwall rule? The should be experienced enough to know how to use a shield...

Fiefdoms:
Army bonus: nice, makes the army work better together!
Good: some nice changes in rules, like the honour of Lamedon is nice. Not game changing, but okay.
Bad: some heroes up in points, I think it's fair, but not good for them as a army.

Dead of Dunharrow:
Army bonus: nice, the king is more usefull, especially since all your warriors have also the terror special rule. Warbands with only dead of dunharrow, so you can have a full 'dead' army.
Good: King of the dead is much more usefull, stronger and has one mightpoint. Warriors are a point cheaper I think and the defence of the horses from the riders is better. So, usefull changes! And they can walk on water, it's very situational, but can be very usefull.
Bad: well, I guess there's nothing worse than before.

Will be update later on...

Go find me Anarion's profile in the book. Now I will point to 3 mentions of him.

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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:26 am 
Elven Warrior
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Personally I think the biggest loser that I have seen is wood elf sentinels. I used to think that they were overcosted anyway (D3 1W) but they could at least hide behind your lines with the way elven cloaks used to work. However now, I just don’t understand why they didn’t get a points reduction with the nerf to cloaks. I think they should be 20pts max now, they are just wayyyy too over costed now.

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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:08 am 
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I've updated my previous post. Short reviews until Rivendell. If you think I forgot something important (and that change is big, because I write it in my breakes), mention it! I like to see some opinions of others and learn what I forgot.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:42 pm 
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WhoelsebutHaldir wrote:
Personally I think the biggest loser that I have seen is wood elf sentinels. I used to think that they were overcosted anyway (D3 1W) but they could at least hide behind your lines with the way elven cloaks used to work. However now, I just don’t understand why they didn’t get a points reduction with the nerf to cloaks. I think they should be 20pts max now, they are just wayyyy too over costed now.


It's still worth having a sentinel or 2 if ur taking Galadhrim tho no? They can change a game potentially by allowing you to move enemy models to manipulate objectives and combats into your favour.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:49 pm 
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I still think they reduce your numbers too much considering how fragile they are. A decent player will target the sentinels early and it is harder to protect them now.

I agree that they are nice to disrupt enemy lines, and hopefully that will be more effective now with fury being less prevalent. I think I would rather take some Galadrim knights that can be used for other scenario objectives though. I’ll still try to use sentinels but I’m not overly optimistic.

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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:54 pm 
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Watchers of Karna are really not that great anymore. Merchant guard are the undisputed premier elite of the Serpent Horde.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:24 am 
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McGarnacle wrote:
Watchers of Karna are really not that great anymore. Merchant guard are the undisputed premier elite of the Serpent Horde.


There's a strong case to say that the regular warriors and riders are now the best troops in the list: even better than the elites and even cheaper, as long as the Betrayer is around :-)
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:51 pm 
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LordElrond wrote:
McGarnacle wrote:
Watchers of Karna are really not that great anymore. Merchant guard are the undisputed premier elite of the Serpent Horde.


There's a strong case to say that the regular warriors and riders are now the best troops in the list: even better than the elites and even cheaper, as long as the Betrayer is around :-)

Actually that ability can only occur a few times, no longer permanent.

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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:38 pm 
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While this is true, the betrayer has 14 will, So he could potentially activate his ability 14 times. I think 14 times is more than enough for most games.
On the other hand, the effect of the master of poisons special rule is greatly increased. It now allows to reroll all failed to wounds instead of just 1's and 2's
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Don't forget Serpent Guard get the effect as well, so they become an attractive Fight 4 option. Both cav units are also solid because with lances and poison they hit hard and are really cheap.
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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:54 pm 
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McGarnacle wrote:
Don't forget Serpent Guard get the effect as well, so they become an attractive Fight 4 option. Both cav units are also solid because with lances and poison they hit hard and are really cheap.

Expensive unit, as you still pay for a poison spear.

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 Post subject: Re: Which units are the big winners? Big losers?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Cave Dragon wrote:
McGarnacle wrote:
Don't forget Serpent Guard get the effect as well, so they become an attractive Fight 4 option. Both cav units are also solid because with lances and poison they hit hard and are really cheap.

Expensive unit, as you still pay for a poison spear.

Ah, good point
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