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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Alexander wrote:
All I can say is PHALANX, PHALANX, PHALANX I find the best way is to have at least one solid phalanx of heavily armoured troops in your army. Then fill the 33% or your bow allowance any spare points then goes into cavalry provided you have a cavalry choice to take. Use your bowmen to pick off any units that could easily get behind your phalanx, use your cavalry to pick off warmachines and archers so they don't take apart your phalanx from afar. All enemy infantry will then have no choice but to face your Phalanx head on and if your cavalry end up surviving long enough the enemy will also have to worry about becoming trapped in between a hammer and anvil with bowmen firing at any unengaged models.


Not sure what this has to do with the betrayer. And you tactic is easily dealt with, kill off all your support, leaving you phalanx surrounded and trapped.
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:03 pm 
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I agree: I would need a serious Shield Wall phalanx if I took Betrayer instead of the usual ShadowLord. My Watchers of Karna would get chewed up otherwise, with their pitiful defense. Easterling Pikes are tempting...shooting from behind D6 shields as I march across the field, then on the charge, the Pikes fall back behind a spear, to give my Watchers 4 attacks. Got to play test this. But allying is so expensive...just 10 shield/pikes and Easterling Captain w/ shield is 155 points. Alternatively, those 155 points could buy 31 human shields...

So: still on topic for how to Build Me an Army Worthy of poor, under-appreciated Betrayer... Which is better: 10 D6 shields (with pikes), or 31 Harad meat shields?

Those 31 additional troops let me massively increase my Watchers bow numbers. And three rows of ten Meat Shields should stop that annoying In The Way tactic of targeting the guy behind the shield. I am leaning this way... Might be time to post on Army Help.
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:57 am 
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Meat shields! :lol: It increases your breaking point and you'd have a better chance of doing damage with the 31 models than with the 10 shields. They would die faster than they could be of any use. If the pikes were supporting Watchers, they would just be shot by archers leaving the pikes exposed.

I remember reading a Battle Report written be Simmuskhan where his opponent (I believe it was his brother) used the Betrayer very well mounted on a horse. With increased mobility, he took out key models with Black Dart and aided Haradrim Raiders in getting kills. He always faced Dwarves so the extra re-roll/ increase ability thing :? really helped in taking out dwarves. Even managed to kill a Vault Warden shield bearer if my memory is correct.

Hope that helps with the discussion. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:34 am 
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Wah Wing wrote:
Meat shields! :lol: It increases your breaking point and you'd have a better chance of doing damage with the 31 models than with the 10 shields. They would die faster than they could be of any use. If the pikes were supporting Watchers, they would just be shot by archers leaving the pikes exposed.


I agree with the meat shields sentiment. In my experience, you can easily run a D4-5 army without Shadowlord, if you have sufficient numbers. I would go as far to say that the Shadowlord is a waste in 70+ model armies. Pump up your model count, and it'll be far less of a problem.

Having said that, I'm not personally a fan of the Betrayer (I far prefer the Undying), and I don't know many people who have really made him work. If I were to give some advice, I'd say mass shooting, as opposed to fewer but more accurate shots, is the key to getting the most from him. You need Serpent Guard to benefit from his role up close, and given their points, you would get more out of normal Harad Archers. A solid bank of 20 with spears and the Betrayer would be a pretty effective way to go about it I would imagine.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Wah Wing wrote:
I remember reading a Battle Report written be Simmuskhan where his opponent used the Betrayer very well mounted on a horse. With increased mobility, he took out key models with Black Dart and aided Serpent Riders? in getting kills. He always faced Dwarves so the extra re-roll/ increase ability thing :? really helped in taking out dwarves. Even managed to kill a Vault Warden shield bearer if my memory is correct.


I have sort of corrected you, as the Betrayer doesn't affect Harad Raiders (unless they have bows too which is wasteful), only Serpent Riders.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:25 pm 
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Raiders with bow isnt wasteful... infact its very clever. Move 5 and shoot while behind your men, then pop out and lance the anoying boils when needed.
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:47 am 
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Especially against the dwarves. Their stumpy little legs won't let them catch the Raiders, and the poisoned arrows ought to bring them down faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:11 am 
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I'm pretty sure they were Raiders. I'll have a look through the Battle Reports again to make sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:30 pm 
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I still don't think cavalry with bows are good in SBG (although they're better in SBG than in WOTR) And Dwarves have so high a defennce you need better than 6s to wound anyway, so although they can do more damage, its still not much compared to others.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:58 pm 
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I find Harad Raiders with bows and lances are great. Especially when combined with an equal number of serpent riders. Normally some of an all cavalry horde won't get into combat... with this formation it doesn't matter so much.
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:11 pm 
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The LOTR universe is so altered with Warbands. Now Betrayer is the looking better, with VenomBlade Knights, at least. Playtested a Karna host with bows: still had to roll 6's to wound and that poison re-roll managed to kill just one guy the whole game. The 6" range of Betrayer is not handy with different goal scenarios like Domination: can't keep everyone together. Karna were much more effective in close combat. Even though their D4 got them mauled against S4 opponents. I had 18 bows at 3+ accurancy, and did so much less damage than I hoped the new Scorpion Sting 1/2 bows rule would do. I'll play it more and hope for better rolls, but I am sorely tempted to settle for 1/3 bows and ally in some decent defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:41 pm 
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I had calculated the % change of a archer hitting a killing a defense 6 and defense 7 target when was thinking of buying the Betrayer. I don't remember the exact numbers but I can safely tell you that the Master of Poisons rule is a waste. The increased probability for D7 targets was about 1,8% if I remember correctly and for D6 it was around 3%. People tend to over value the ability but if you come to think about it you first need to roll 4+ to hit. Then on a 6 you wound a D6 target, but in case you roll 1 or 2 on the wound chart, you still need to subsequently roll a 6. That's 1/3 times 2/11 which if you calculate it produces a grim chance to wound. Making, the not so, long story short, Master of Poisons rule doesn't actually influence anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Well, let's see: 1/2 (to hit) * 1/6 (to wound against D5 and D6) = 1/12 chance to kill = 8.33%. 1/2 * 7/36 (chance to wound with poison ability, by my calculation) = 7/72 chance = 9.72% chance. That's a difference of 1.38%. With the Betrayer: 1/2 * 2/9 = 11.11%. That's a 1.39% increase in damage output over standard poison and 2.77% over standard bows, assuming that this is only against D5 and D6. (For poison I did 1/6 * 1/6 + 1/6 or chance to reroll*chance to wound+chance to wound. The Betrayer was 1/3 * 1/6 + 1/6) A Watcher of Karna starts out with a 12.96% chance of killing a D5 or D6 opponent. So basically, it would be MUCH better to get alot of Watchers than to get the Betrayer.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Yes, the Betrayer's poison rule for archers is rubbish. However, he is still very good, because of his Bane of Kings rule. If a Betrayer on Fell Beast charges and wins a fight, he'll be getting six Strength 6 attacks to wound, and he can re-roll all of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Having used the Betrayer and finished 2nd at a UKGT with him I support General Elessar's post completely. His rule for archers (or other troops) is a waste of time, only useful if you really have nothing better to do - ie. the first few turns of the game. His Bane of Kings however makes him a flying, magic casting Spider Queen and if used properly it means he's an insanely powerful tool in your army. 1 bad move by your opponent and he loses every captain. 1 bad move by your opponent and he might even lose Aragorn-level hero, while at the same time other wraiths on Fell Beasts have about a 50/50 chance of killing a mere captain and will barely ever kill off a super hero. Betrayer is THE combat wraith and in the new rules his value increased because he allows a band to be taken, so if we consider that you would have to have a captain, a foot version of Betrayer is effectively just 75 points and if you're on Fell Beast then you're paying 120 and the FB is free. Bargain and absolute must in new rules in great majority of cases

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Hello, the topic sign up link says that the page no longer exists.

Can I revive a very old thread and start a new topic?

If so, can we talk about rangers?

Thanks,

LordElrond
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:37 pm 
Elven Warrior
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What do you want to talk about?

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:33 pm 
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Rangers?
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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:12 am 
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What aspect about them I mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:15 am 
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Also, do you have a specific set of Rangers you are most interested in discussing? The Grey Company, for example, is different enough from Rangers of Gondor to justify two separate discussions (and don't throw Dwarf Rangers in there!).

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