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 Post subject: Continuous Tactical Discussions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:58 am 
Kinsman
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Alert! Thror has finally woken up, and, "in a momentary lapse into semi-coherence", has thought of an idea.

*drum roll*
The Weekly Tactical Discussion
The plan is, I give a topic. Then, for the week, we discuss the tactical merits and demerits of the topic. At the start of the new week, I change the topic. It not only exercises our little military minds, but ultimately, we may find this thread transforming into... *drum roll*
The Ultimate LOTRSBG Tactical Guide

May not be a good idea. At least I tried :).

So to start it off, this weeks topic is Wargs. You can choose whether to view them as in an Isengard or Mordor army.
Bye,
Thror.

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Last edited by Thrór Clawhammer on Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:41 am, edited 31 times in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:10 am 
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Awesome idea Thror :D. I'll start...

The problem with Wargs is their low defence and courage ratings. I suggest hiding them behind models with a high defence such as Uruk-hai. Keep a Hero close to help prevent them from running away. In combat they are deadly with the same Strength and Fight Value as an Uruk. Not only that but their ability to cause Terror comes in handy too when being outnumbered.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:35 am 
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I like this idea Thrór - hopefully you can spawn some useful discussions. I will make it sticky and see how it grows.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:14 am 
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Now my own contribution.

Wargs in an Isengard army have to be used in a very particular way. They should be used as backup, used to quickly throw extra attacks into a fight, rather than a spearhead of the force. Playing a game the other day against Gondor, I, being used to the tough Uruk-hai, found my Wargs being convincingly slaughtered by the armoured men. Not good. As Nolofinwe said, low Defence leaves them liable to die early from bowfire - against elves, they just aren't worth it. Generally quite good units to keep in reserve - their longer move means they can stay safe, where the enemy can't reach them but they can easily reach the enemy. In combination with Uruk-hai, they are best used to increase the number of dice you can roll, also increasing the chance that the Uruk's Fight VAlue will win the fight. Throwing spears are also quite effective.

I don't know much about Mordor, but in a Mordor army, they are probably the ultimate troop choice. Where Isengard take a Berserker, Mordor take a Warg. They are identical to Orcs in the statline, but of course they get the advantage of an extra attack on the charge and nearly double the Move distance. Also, you would lose the frustration that you get when, using an Isengard army, you look over and see that out of your 31 strong army, 7 have died and they are ALL Wargs. With Mordor, it's quite the opposite - your Wargs are actually less likely to die than your Orcs...

Oh, um.... How should I put this?
Thanks for stickying it Dagorlad.
Bye,
Thror

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:53 am 
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Can't wait to see what URFT has to say on these guys, he hates them :)

I see wargs as the mop up crew. Keep them in reserve and use them to clean up the stragglers around the edges. With their high movement you can keep them further back where people will (hopefully) leave them alone then charge them forward when you have priority.

As already mentioned throwing them in to give you the extras attacks, is also an option, but if using them around the edges it can help you to push up the kill rate to that magic 50%.

Always pick your fight however, they will often need several wargs to kill a single Man, make sure you outnumber then enemy you are charging otherwise you may find your nice doggies do the death dance.

They are NOT the all killing cavalry that SKoDA are, thay are along a similar line to Rohirrim, used for hit and run tactics.

Thats my twopenny worth anyway.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:21 am 
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Nygyll of Wyvernhole wrote:
Thats my twopenny worth anyway.

The whole point of this thread is for everyone to give their "twopenny worth" . lol Nygyll, it makes you sound very pessimistic... *play music, "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life"*

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:42 am 
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Thror Clawhammer wrote:
lol Nygyll, it makes you sound very pessimistic...

Sorry I just got off the phone to a very annoying and arogant customer so was in a bit of a :( mood.
Now I have had my second coffee and am :D .

But I like this thread and looks to be quite a good discussion.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:01 am 
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Nygyll of Wyvernhole wrote:
Now I have had my second coffee and am :D

Lol! I'm sure my mum can empathise with you there. I was at her work today, and after an argument with some pain in the neck over whether or not he'd booked the simulator, she sighed and announced, "Right, well I'm getting a coffee."
Anyway, we better stay on topic... Wargs anyone?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:37 pm 
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Ok we are talking about this> an orc with extra movement.
Everyone who read this post would know the profile of an orc on a puppy dog. :)
f s d a w c
3/5+ :cry: 3 :? 4/5 :? 1 1 2 :cry:
And they get 1 extra attack when they charge infantry and have only 1 attack if they charge rohirim.
@ nolofinwe:
Quote:
Not only that but their ability to cause Terror comes in handy too when being outnumbered.
lol i didn't know that wargs cause terror :P . a hero for courage tests isn't enough to prevent them from running away, Mordor can field a shaman with fury, but isengard... :(
And sharku has the same courage value as a womt. And you cannot field a uruk hai shaman on a warg. And you say that a hero can deal equal damage as a uruk, but a uruk is the same point cost as a warg and a hero on warg is at least 50 points with shield equal to 5 uruks.
And i would not hide wargs for 11 points behind my uruks but i would put pikeman behind them or crossbow uruks. Same points and they are more usefull.
@ thor
Quote:
In combination with Uruk-hai, they are best used to increase the number of dice you can roll,

Uruks with pike can also increase your dice rolls :)
Quote:
Throwing spears are also quite effective.

Lol :shock: a 5+ to hit and mostly a 6 to wound, very effective :P .
Quote:
I don't know much about Mordor, but in a Mordor army, they are probably the ultimate troop choice.

No they are not, wargs are jsut orcs on puppy dogs and the strenght of orcs is their numbers and you won't get a lot of numbers when they cost 11 points. The ultimate choice for mordor are morannon orcs, The Witch king on fell beast and Trolls.
Quote:
Where Isengard take a Berserker, Mordor take a Warg.

With isengard i take berserkers and with mordor I shall take morannon orcs. Both strenght 4 and defense 6 and they are cheaper and will take down more troops.
Quote:
They are identical to Orcs in the statline, but of course they get the advantage of an extra attack on the charge and nearly double the Move distance
Thet get the extra attack if they charge first and are attacking infantry. Infantry supported by spears or pikes get also 1 extra attack.
And can you explain why wargs are less likely to die ? It depends which one is in range first I think.
Quote:
, you look over and see that out of your 31 strong army, 7 have died and they are ALL Wargs.
Thats why you shouldn't take wargs in an Isengard army but uruks because they are thouger.
Quote:
As already mentioned throwing them in to give you the extras attacks, is also an option, but if using them around the edges it can help you to push up the kill rate to that magic 50%.
You mean it will help the opponent to get the magic 50%. Unless he has rohan infantry or hobbits.
Quote:
Always pick your fight however, they will often need several wargs to kill a single Man, make sure you outnumber then enemy you are charging otherwise you may find your nice doggies do the death dance.
What if the enemy keeps his troops together, You need 2 or 3 wargs to kill one, lets say a womt, he is 8 points and you have 33, you won't outnumber him but he will probably ounumber your wargs.
Quote:
They are NOT the all killing cavalry that SKoDA are, thay are along a similar line to Rohirrim, used for hit and run tactics.
Rohan have bows with a range of 56 cm and can shout at the enemy because evil armies don't have a lot of good archers( generally).
The Ror advance,shoot , move back at half movement and use then hit and run ractics with good heroes and they have royal guards, Ok rohan is not the best cavalery choice, i would not use them for a battle. I like lances. If you like wargs what would be your army :?:
If i have to fight wargs they will be shot by rangers if they are at the front, if they are hiding if will shoot at the troops and but Skoda around the flanks to get the magic 50%, skoda can do that wargs not.
A skoda and a Komt need a 4+ to wound a warg (lance bonus) a Warg need a 6 to wound a skoda and a 5 to wound a komt, Wargs have bad heroes to lead them. Gottmog maybe but if you field him with wargs thats almost 250 points.
So if anyone of you watched the two towers movie, you should know that the Wargs where send out to kill women and children of the rohirim :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:26 pm 
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i have to agree with urft,

but then i have to admit i do use wargs, but for a different reason.
i field about 6 wargs in my mordor army for the sole purpose of distraction.
round were i live not really anybody uses wargs apart from me and i win allot of battles so every one gets the idea there good.
the truth is i have only killed about 10 models with wargs in the last 20 games ive fielded them.

i just put them down and then let then run round the side of the field so that it looks like im trying to flank my enemies.
there bow fire and most of there attention is fixed on my wargs and then i can move my bowmen within range and possibly even get my infantry up close.

being honest , this tactic wont work on any professional gamers and will only work on some moderate gamers.

appart from that i will only field wargs in double figures.
atleast ten wargs or none and i mostly field 14 with gothmog in a 1000 point army.

anyone else?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:16 pm 
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i just put them down and then let then run round the side of the field so that it looks like im trying to flank my enemies.

And what if the enemy has his archers placed on the flanks ?
Quote:
i mostly field 14 with gothmog in a 1000 point army.

Gothmog has a potato head and is riding on a warg, so i hate him :P
A good player will fire some arrows at his warg, so that puppy dog will die :cry: :twisted: .And a gothmog on foot is weak.

Quote:
the truth is i have only killed about 10 models with wargs in the last 20 games ive fielded them.

That is the reason why i take uruks in my isengard army because they kill a lot more than 10 models in 20 games.

But wargs can maybe kill more if they fight hobbits or Rohan women and children. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:20 pm 
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Very good idea Thrór :idea:
I also see using warg riders only for distracting the enemy (riding around so that they could catch attention of archers and maybe even, with some luck kill some with their bows), or for hit and run tactics. The are unfortunately too weak to stand against heavy armoured cavalry.
At some point I even considered building a whole army made of only warg riders (these minis are great). I remember that in one of White Dwarves there was an article about a warg riders army, unfortunately I don't have this issue at the moment.
I suppose that orc shaman mounted on a warg could be quite effective.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:08 pm 
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I will go check but there is a white dwarf that a guy in it has a warg gang and he has a converted shaman on a warg let em go get the number...

WD305 June 2005.

That's in the U.S. So i don't know if anywhere else they give out different copies so whatever. But yes i ear wargs are weak so everyone listen to URFT he knows what he is talking about. :x

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:36 pm 
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The way we see the wargs today may be changed for the better when the new rulebook comes out.
There has been a lot of talk about new rules for cavalery:

-You can choose if the rider or the mount (Warg), will attack.
So if the warg wins a combat where it has charged, we are talking about 4 strenght 4 hits!!!

To match that you will need: 1. Berserker
2. Uruk w. pike
3. Uruk w. pike
And you still don't knock your opponent to the ground.

That's 37 points of Uruks and only 11 points for one wargrider.

None of this is official, but it looks promising :D

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:03 pm 
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Quote:
So if the warg wins a combat where it has charged, we are talking about 4 strenght 4 hits!!!

If that rulebook comes out i think that wargs are gonna cost more than 11 points.
If not than even I would gonna buy Wargs :evil: :P

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:34 pm 
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Knight of Ni wrote:
The way we see the wargs today may be changed for the better when the new rulebook comes out.
There has been a lot of talk about new rules for cavalery:

-You can choose if the rider or the mount (Warg), will attack.
So if the warg wins a combat where it has charged, we are talking about 4 strenght 4 hits!!!


That's a very good point, I completely forgot about new rules for cavalry that are supposed to appear in new rulebook. And I think that this rule is pretty sure to appear (during Polish Games Day I talked to Alessio Cavatore and he confirmed it).
So, warriors of Good - beware :!: :twisted: :orc:
Ok, that sounds nice, but as URFT pointed out, new possibilities for warg riders will probably mean that they will cost more :roll: But we'll have to wait to autumn for the release of One Rulebook to rule them All. Until then, warg riders are not that useful...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:34 pm 
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Wow! as predicted Nygyll, URFT turns up and gives the poor Wargs a beating.

Absolutely right - you aren't going to get 4 strength 4 attacks for 11 points. Just not going to happen. But that would make them darned powerful - but it would also bump them up from RoR sort of level to even more powerful than SKoDA - and more expensive. It would become difficult to field Wargs, and you'd end up being able to take only a few. Let's not forget though, the courage rules are changing - that will certainly weaken Wargs by far. It could mean that an archer takes out an Orc on the other side of the field, your force is reduced to 50% and next turn, you fail your test. Nasty, having your huge killermachine reduced to nothing by a Courage test.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:07 pm 
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i thnk urft is right and wargs are stupid, but i am glad i got two boxes for my birthday because they are really fun to paint and if there are new rules i will definently field some.

what about these new rules?
does anyone know a thread about them cause i havent heard anything.
please give me a link.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:26 pm 
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The great thing about Wargs, are their tactical flexibility.

-They can be used as a diversion, to attract enemy bowfire. And by doing that giving the rest of your army a chance to get to the enemy with less casualties.
Your opponent can choose to ignore the wargs, but then he will soon find them behind his battleline. Not a place where he wants them to be.

-"But the wargs just get shot!!" Do you play on your kitchentable?? Ever heard about terrain :?: :!: Use forests, hills etc. to prevent your cavalry to be taken out by archers, unless you are making a diversion as mentioned before.

-Cavalry is best used for flank attacks in the later stages of the battle, when the battlelines are breaking up. This is also the point when a battle is won or lost.
Keep the wargs in cover, but close to your battleline. (If you are playing Mordor you will probably have the biggest). At one point the good player must send his archers into close combat, to replace the warriors killed in earlier rounds of combat. Thats when the wargs comes into play, charging into the enemy flank.

Yes! Wargs are weak, and they dont win the battle alone. (neither do the KoMT). Use them correctly, togheter with the rest of your army, and victory will be yours! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:24 pm 
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They can be used as a diversion, to attract enemy bowfire. And by doing that giving the rest of your army a chance to get to the enemy with less casualties.

Ok you want the wargs to protect other models from bowfire ? which one ? I see this tactic as a waste of points because you lsoe 10/11 points for a warg and what do you win with this tactic ? The best thing against bowfire is warriors at the front with defense 6 or a lot of models that only cost 5 or 6 points taht you can mis.

Quote:
-"But the wargs just get shot!!" Do you play on your kitchentable?? Ever heard about terrain Use forests, hills etc. to prevent your cavalry to be taken out by archers, unless you are making a diversion as mentioned before.
Terrain can sometimes save the puppy dogs but not every table has enough hills and trees so that your wargs are behind cover every turn.
Quote:
but then he will soon find them behind his battleline. Not a place where he wants them to be.
Some people have their cavalery behind their battleline or just block the wargs while they are moving
And what are the wargs going to do behind the battleline, Uruk pikemen behind my battleline can do more than wargs behind the enemies line.
Wargs still need to win a fight and roll to wound if they wanna be usefull behind enemy lines. In real war only commandos and special forces are send behind enemy lines, not the weakest troops on puppy dogs :)
Quote:
Cavalry is best used for flank attacks in the later stages of the battle, when the battlelines are breaking up. This is also the point when a battle is won or lost.
Do you know the difference between Wargs and cavalery :?: :P
:arrow: You need to kill models for winning the battle so you need to win fights first and then roll to wound, lances are very usefull, but wargs cannot carry them.

Quote:
Yes! Wargs are weak, and they dont win the battle alone. (neither do the KoMT). Use them correctly, togheter with the rest of your army, and victory will be yours!
Quote:
Komt have lances and they wound on 5s and have good heroes to lead them that are also carry lances.
You say that wargs are weak, so why do you field them if harad have better cavalery ,And you don't need orcs on puppy dogs to win a battle.
Harad have lances and good bows and are cheaper than rohan, but their are only metal models :cry: :( .
Whats your army list of your army with wargs if you use them ?

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