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 Post subject: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:08 am 
Elven Warrior
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Before getting more competitevly into the hobby I used to do what I think seemed natural and purchased miniatures that simply appealed to me by their looks (either from a movie/book or I simply liked the pose).

On some occasions I purchased miniatures that turned out to be rather good (Hasharin, Gorbag & Shagrat etc.) on other occasions not so much.

The miniatures in question are the following:

The Necromancer
Gothmog,
Mouth of Sauron
Gulavhar


I have tried repetedly to use the Necromancer (though from the original Fall of the Necromancer version, not the new one with the curse spell and potential free will etc.) alas not so well. And it seems to me that his high point cost doesnt justify the fact that You could essentially field 2 named Nazgyl and for 10 extra give them both horses and thus accomplish as much if not more (e.g Dark Marshal + the Undying).

A bonus question with the release of a new profile for the Necromancer that states that it overwrites the past publications of this character does it mean that the one found in the Mordor list cannot be used for fielding Dol Guldur orcs / Shamans or is it simply for the Hobbit games ?

In terms of Gothmog I find his special rule really wanting and not justifying his high cost as well. Ture enough he creates a buddle that bars the opponent from calling Heroics but still this job could be accomplished by the Tained and potentially by the Dwimmerlake.

Mouth of Sauron . I don't see him necessarily bad as he is an intersting character that fits the profile of a captain and a mediocre budget wraith however he doesn't excel at either one of these roles.

Gulavhar Used him only once, got killed by Legolas and a few Elves. Perhaps should have used him more like Shelob or smth. Not sure. Seems to me like a troll could fill his role much better (Naturally Gulavhar is able to fly and be really mobile, but a mobile glass cannon is of questionable value given his high points cost)

So the question remains is my reasoning with these characters correct or has anyone had good experience playing with them and perhaps some of You could give me some tips and/or advice as to how to improve the competitive potential of these miniatures. I really like these characters but its a shame that they simply dust away on a shelf.

Much Appreciated and Kind Regards

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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:15 pm 
Kinsman
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With the exception of the Mouth of Sauron, these are fairly high cost heroes, and it can be difficult to realize their full value unless you're playing fairly high points level games (say 700 and higher). Simply because to play one of those heroes reduces your overall troop count so much that it's too challenging to provide adequate support for the big hero to be able to do what they do well.

At 500 points, it's much more common to see lots of "mid-level" heroes in the 50 - 90 point range, as they can provide value, but still allow for enough battlefield core troops.

That being said, a few specific thoughts:

Re: Necromancer: I get your point about 2 wraiths providing more value. Can't really argue too much. The Necromancer can be a brutal hero killer if used well. But can he "earn his points?" Hard to say. I'm not sure if the old Mordor Sourcebook profile is now defunct. I thought that that wording only applied to previous "Hobbit" profiles (An Unexpected Journey, Desolation of Smaug, Battle of Five Armies), but I could be wrong.

Re: Gothmog. I actually quite like his special rule. And I don't think he's overcosted. His cost is pretty similar to your standard high-ish level hero with 3 Att and 3 M/W/F. Close to Glorfindel or Eomer Knight of the Pelennor. And I think his special rule can be super handy (and extremely annoying).

Re: Mouth of Sauron. You're in consensus with most of the community on this one. He's OK at combat, but only has 1 Might. He's OK at spells, but not quite as good as a wraith. There are others that do all that he can do, and do those things better.

Re: Gulhavar. I think he's pretty damn scary. 12" move, fly, and a combat beast (F6, Str 8, 3 Might), in addition to being a monster, and gaining access to Brutal Power Attacks. Monsters with Might are *really* scary. He's both an insanely good hero killer, and also capable of just smashing up an opponent's shield line.

At only Def 5, and because he has Terror, yes - he's going to be an archery target. Keep him behind friends until he can engage. Legolas though does present problems for him, and at 200 points, he will be a Legolas target. But Legolas should only wound him 1/3 of the time, unless he uses Might. And if Gulhavar stays with your army, and can wrack up some kills, he should be able to keep regaining wounds. Ideally, the rest of your army can tie up the opponent enough for Gulhavar (or something else) to single out Legolas and knock him out. Be careful not to expose Gulhavar away from the rest of your force though. He will go down fast if trapped.

But your opponent shouldn't always have Legolas. And hopefully, the rest of your army can try to get to Legolas, or at least
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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:58 pm 
Loremaster
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The Necromancer is good but costs a lot so you have to use him carefully and in the right way.
Azog gets Gothmog's rule for free (how have they let him and bolg get so op?), so Gothmog is worth less cos of this.
Yeah the mouth is worse in combat and more expensive than a captain and worse at magic than a wraith. He is however useful in smaller games when you cannot afford to have so many specialist heroes cosyou'll only get like 2/3 heroes at 350 pts
Gulavhar is obviously good if you canget him into combat without being shot at. Using him with the shadowlordor hiding him behind something big like a troll to block shots might work.
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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:41 pm 
Wayfarer
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With the Necromancer and Mouth of Sauron I have made similar disappointing experiences. But they are really cool looking.
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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:19 pm 
Craftsman
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The mouth of Sauron is super cool looking, agreed. While he probably isn't as a good as a wraith, for similar points you can take him and have a mounted hero after you cast a few spells, might be ok. Especially if you already took a cheaper wraith that's throwing out spells, he can do one or two more then charge in on his horse get some knock downs.

I haven't used the others at all but I think with the new wraiths of dol guldor the necromancer is gonna pretty nasty. He himself might not be amazing for his points but making the wraiths come back is pretty goofy. Seems like it would be pretty fun and a little more thematically what you would want the necromancer to be like not just hiding behind a horde of orcs.

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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:32 am 
Loremaster
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I'm a gothmog fan. I have used his special rule with devastating effect. Granted shagrat the warband leader was in range of the free heroic combat I was able to call so the poor hero got hit by both gothmog and shagrat. It was awesome!
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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:45 pm 
Wayfarer
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I do beg to differ on the Mouth of Sauron. I played against an army that had him in, and he kept my Prince Imrahil shut down for several turns. He was actually quite effective, as he allowed Shagrat War Leader, Black Guard and Black Numenoreans to do their jobs relatively efficiently while keeping my poor Prince transfixed out of the game. It was a really fun game, in the lower middle section of the pack at the Stirling tournament in early October.
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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:14 am 
Kinsman
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Gothmog gives you a 3/3/3 hero that can be mounted, that's huge even without his special rule. His special rule gives you a bubble of no opposing heroics, which is very powerful and can be used to manipulate your opponents.

Mouth of Sauron is more for the smaller games when you have to decide between a Captain and a Budget Wraith. Yes, as you go up in points, he can become redundant, but he is a cheap spellcaster who has three attacks on the charge. That's not bad at all.

The Necromancer I can't talk as much about.

Gulavhar... I used Gulavhar in two games yesterday. Game 1 he ate my opponent alive, did not take a single wound (granted I was really lucky because I did use him recklessly), and just caused trauma across the board. Game 2 he died in turn one thanks to shooting. He's very powerful, you just have to protect him.



Combat heroes in general, I always make a point of taking them in pairs. Gothmog typically goes with Bolg, Gulavhar went with a Troll Chieftain, Shagrat goes with a Spider Queen; I don't think a sole combat hero is that effective because they're so easy to shut down with enough resources.
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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:55 am 
Elven Warrior
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I think everyone that has replied has hit the nail on the head.
They can be very powerful but you have to use them correctly.
It sounds like your opponents knew what they were doing and you were punished. As long as you keep them safe and they are a good fit for the points and rest of the army they should all do well.

Gothmog is a very strong profile. 3 attacks mounted, he is a strong hero even without the possible free heroics.

The necromancer is found in the Moria & Angmar sourcebook only for LOTR era rules. The new hobbit rules replace the profile in the Moria & Angmar sourcebook. So you can ally him into an army from that book into any army.
He probably would be the hardest to use but a few channeled spells can be devastating.
I think its a bit more about not being able to kill him easily so 2 ringwraiths may be more effective but he would possibly last longer.

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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:23 pm 
Kinsman
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I've had great fun with Gully and ShadowLord (preferably on Fell Beast) --but could not justify the points dump in a competitive game. My opponent had to protect their heroes into uselessness, but two Monster Heroes can't win alone --and anything goes down evenutally if isolated and swarmed. True, monsters can Barge their way out, but the Might cost is generally too high.
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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:33 pm 
Kinsman
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The problem is, and I'm more than guilty of this, when you have a monster hero, it's just so tempting to charge him in against a horde. If nothing else, it makes the game exciting. I've been very good about protecting my Shelob over the years, but a flying Nazgul with only one more attack I'm more than happy to launch against a horde.

You absolutely can keep them safe and still get their points' worth, it's just less fun.
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 Post subject: Re: Usefulness of certain miniatures
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:51 am 
Loremaster
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I have a lot to say but to keep it simple:
Those three guys Gulavhar, Mouth of Sauron, and Gothmog IN MY OPINION will probably get changed significantly.

As for Necromancer....hes amazing in his new list of Dark Powers. Realistically.....50 will if you use 1 die each time.

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