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 Post subject: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2016 7:07 am 
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Guys, I would need a little help here.

When I am using Heroic fight and if I win the fight, I can then immediately charge again. But does that mean, that I charge again before the losing side has made their Panic test or after it?

And if you charge again as a result of Heroic Fight or Earth-shaking charge, does that mean you repeat the whole procedure of charge again, as it is done in the charge phase?

Thanks for answers :)

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2016 5:36 am 
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I think rules are plain here.
Tests for panic take place after all combats have occurred. This means that even if a formation is charged for a second time, it rolls the panic test only if it is loses again; whilst the charging unit rolls the panic test if it has won the first combat but lost the second one.
Also, the second charge is a new one under all aspects: you must be successful with the roll, and you may reroll if a standard is present, or use might if there is any left. New heroic/epic actions may only be declared if that is stated in their descriptions.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2016 2:12 pm 
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Though your explanation seem logical, I still don't know about it. In rulebook there is written Fight Procedure, whic states under step 6 that you must determine victor, and under step 7 that the loser must make Panic test. I thought that after completing the whole procedure you are then free to make aditional charges as a result of Heroic fight or Earth-Shaking charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 3:14 am 
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klemzy,

You would charge again immediately after the losing side makes their Panic Test. In other words, if you win the Fight, and they fail their ensuing Panic test and become Disordered, then you may charge them again and likely want to (although you may also charge another formation). Yep, there is going to be a whipping, since they will only get one dice per coy in the second fight. This is one of the strengths of Cavalry as they do this exceedingly well.

Yes, you repeat the Charge procedure just as you would have previously in the Charge Phase. Heroic Fights are a very important part of the game. If you think you have a good chance to win a fight, calling Heroic Fight is almost always a good use of Might.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:53 pm 
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Reading again the rulebook after your considerations, it's to be said that the Fight Procedure works for standard battles, while both Earth-Shaking Charge and Heroic Fight are special rules. This latter kind always implies exception to the general ones - it is not a coincidence that Earth-shaking charge rules are boxed apart in the end of the procedure and defer to Heroic Fight. Note infact that there is not a Phase 8 for the eventual ESC die to be thrown.

In Earth-Shaking Charge rules is stated: "...this works the same way as a successful Heroic Fight (see pag. 66).", so these latter are the reference upon the point.

Heroic Fight rules state: "...if the Hero's side wins the combat, then the Hero, his formation... can immediately charge and fight again before proceeding with the Fight phase".
"Immediately" is already self-explanatory, but it is also clearly stated "before proceeding with the Fight phase", that means, no other fight procedures are allowed between the determination of the victor and the new charge starting. Thus no panic tests are to be rolled. The winner is determined in phase 6, at this point the "Immediately" takes effects in the form of somewhat like a 6-bis and, if the die roll is successful, phase 7 is jumped off and a new phase 1 occurs.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:54 pm 
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Klemzy,

Play this rule however you and your opponent agree on if necessary. There is no adjudicating force to clarify disagreements among players. Every other player that I have played with plays it the way I've described. With that said, there are likely to be those that play it the way Hurin_it states. As Andy Hall from GW once told me, "In the meantime please don't let anyone spoil the enjoyment of your games. No one can tell you how to play, it's your model collection and your games."

Hurin_it,
There are obviously different ways two people can interpret the same text. With all due respect, I believe you are mistaken, but I do not wish to argue it with you as it would be fruitless. I will ask you to consider that there was a good reason the writers placed the ESC box out immediately after step 7 of the Fight procedure. That fight is not complete until Step 7, when that fight is complete you "immediately" charge and fight again before any other fights are resolved. There is good reason for the immediately, as cheeky players would sometimes find an advantage in resolving some other fight between the first fight of a heroic fight and the second. I believe that is why the "immediately" is there and not for the reasons you state. The rules state "can immediately charge and fight again before proceeding with the Fight phase", it does not say to interrupt the individual Fight Procedure, but rather the Fight phase.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 5:06 pm 
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Klemzy,
Daersalon (a very experienced player with a club in Wessex) makes a pertinent comment regarding heroic fights under the topic "what actually happens when combat ends?" I'd quote it here but I don't know how to link quotes in that way. I'm not an expert poster.

Here is what he said,

"As the previous poster says in the quote. you just move the troops apart slightly (an inch is never specified in WotR, just apart so the two formations are not touching) and mark the disordered formation in some way. That's it for that combat.

The first exception is if a hero had called Heroic Fight in a combat and his formation won, they can charge again. If they charge a disordered formation (for example the formation they just beat) then the disordered formation will only get 1 attack per company regardless of ALL modifiers.

The second exception is if a cavalry formation wins a fight. After the disorder checks they roll a d6. On a 6, they get 'Earthshaking charge' and may charge again.

These are (I think) the only times a formation gets to 'fight' more than one time in a combat phase."


Hope that helps sheds some third party light on the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Gimli52, Hurin_it - these are exact problems on which I cannot decide.

Though I still think is more logical that this ''immediately'' charge still means that you must first finish Fight Procedure.

I agree that it's ok to play the rule as it is agreed by all players, though I find it somehow strange, that a matter such as this is so open to personal interpretation - after all, fighting with disordered formation compared to fighting with steadfast formation does result in very different number of dices :)

But thank you guys for your views regarding this rule. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 10:49 pm 
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The rules would have benefitted from a second edition had it been forthcoming. Alas, it is not to be. :(

However, this is really the first time (and I've played a lot with many different players) I recall this particular rule being questioned. All the players and clubs I know play it as I described.

Yes, being disordered as opposed to steadfast is a huge difference. It makes an opponent seriously consider using Might to preserve the formation if his die roll is close to being steadfast. :-D

I almost always call a heroic fight with cavalry formations, rather than risk failure on ESC roll, for this very reason. Cavalry chew up formations this way. Some players think cavalry formations are too weak in WOTR, but it is often because they don't go all-in with heroic fights and get the two fights with the opposing formation disordered on the second fight. A proper cavalry charge should route a formation if possible rather than getting tied up in a slugfest. :yay:

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 3:50 pm 
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Not so plain a rule, after all.
I definitively agree with Gimli52 argumentation on its interpretation, it's a bit more reasonable than mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Heroic Fight / Earth-shaking charge
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 9:32 pm 
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You are a good and gracious man Hurin_it. :wink:

Unfortunately, as I said, WOTR would benefit greatly from a second edition. There are many rules that can be interpreted differently by honest players.

It still remains one of my favorite games even with the issues. :)

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